vmc 81 rc embossing

[Ginger Prince]

hi everyone

GP from England

thers a vmc 81 embossing plate on ebay.com

pix attached,

is this real or repro or a slider cut out or something else

sounds cheap if yopu just weld into a generic vmc

[Creighton]

Most likely cut from a slider. Can't tell from the pic. What is the eBay #?
Creighton

[Ginger Prince]

250168594801

[Creighton]

Thanks, GP.
Not sure what this is. The VMC RC door was stamped as one piece as far as I know. Looks like this guy is selling petro signs as well. Big problem with unmarked repops/counterfits in that market. Hope it's not true but someone may have tooled the die to create these. $350 is real high for this. Looking forward to others thoughts.
Creighton
 

[Gumbo]

I emailed him and asked where it came from....a slider. He has not emailed me back yet. If any of the vintage machines are repoped it will devalue what we all have and the hunt that we all love will be over.

Anderson

[collecture]

Anderson,
He added your question to his listing so I guess he did answer you since your post here or somebody else with the same exact question.

I would hate to think that this was cut from a VMC 81 or even a 110! Maybe the bottom was too far gone? I have always wondered if the small (Acton) coolers had the same size embossing?

He says it is an original - maybe rephrase the question as to what machine/cooler it came from?

MCarter is the only one on the site (that I am aware of) that has a RC VMC 81 - maybe he could compare measurements as pictured in the auction.

[Gumbo]

I took your advice Tom and rephrased the question. Here is what I emailed him:

Then what machine / cooler did it come out of? The VMC 81 embossing were stamped into the doors. I don't think you would cut the embossing out of one. I have never heard of a  "factory VMC embossing for coveted Royal Crown RC81 machine". Please explain.

I bet he does not post my question or his answer on ebay! I also have a VINTAGE VMC 81. I would measure the front embossing to see if it is the same size, but it is in storage. Maybe another SMC member  that has one can.

[collecture]

I also have a VINTAGE VMC 81.

My bad!
I forgot you had all (or most) of the 81's. 

[Eric]

Sliders say Best By Taste Test... thats' either off a 81 or 110 or someone
 has made a die or found the old die... there are 7up plates that have popped up on eBay too....

[Ginger Prince]

well i thought it was cheap if you wanted a vmc rc

seems someone else thought it pretty good too!!!!

SOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GP

did anyone on the board buy it?

[SIGNGUY]

We'll the only thing to do now is watch for a newly restored VMC 81 pop up somewhere... and of course ask to see the before and after photos or inside of main door photos...
if one of these dies did pop up... I guess the RC market just dropped!!!
Hate Repops, (unless neccessary for redoing an original machine, pump or decorating purposes only(eric love the signs)).
 

[collecture]

OR
watch and see if this seller offers another up for sale.
If so, a die has been made/found!

[MoonDawg]

      The letters were not cut from an 81.........that piece of metal measures too big.
      Even though the 110 has a bend through the center it probably
could be flattened and  if it were cut properly it would be real close
to the size shown.
     
      If the die had been re-manufactured to stamp these letters, $350.00
would be a drop in the bucket to recover his tooling costs.
       As far as Royal Crown allowing the original stampings to leave their
posession...........very unlikely!

[loman4ec]

I had thought about making a stamp for RC Cola when I moved over here. I could have it done in China for next to nothing but I decided against it. I wanted the Rc so I could stamp my VMC 56 square top. Everyone would know that it was a fake and no harm would be done. I was going to do the best by taste test so if I stamped an 81 it would just be a novelty and it would be easy to tell it was a fake. Oh Well like I said I decided against it

[Gumbo]

Well, of course the guy never email me back to answer any of my questions. 

[Ginger Prince]

well.......................................

the guy has another two for sale!

if anyones interested!

[MoonDawg]

      That's major news!  Where are they listed Ginger?

[Ginger Prince]

hi moondawg

the guy emailed me as i had contacted him when the first one
was listed as to whether he had anymore, he came back to me
by email to confirm he has two further available,

i'm no soda expert so it was interesting to hear others comments
on his original listing,

maybe this just adds to the mystery, not sure

but the guys here seem to think that the embossing is too big for
it to have come from an 81 and the slider is different copy, so!?!

............................i would be just interested to find the answer

regards

GP
England

[Eric]

Where's the seller from?.... what are the chances he had 3 rough machines that he cut these from... this could be bad.... wonder what the gauge of metal is?.... would have
had to spend some cash for a die like that..... unless they have a buddy that has
a CNC machine and time to kill....

[MoonDawg]

      The stampings look pretty good quality, it looks like this guy
is out to sell a lot of these.  Pity the few people who are lucky
enough to own an original RC 81. These will now show up everywhere
unless the SMC watchdog group steps in early!

      The only thing I can think of to battle this fraud is to have a guy
like our own 7up insider Brian, or someone else... get the attention of the
Royal Crown Company and disclose this copyright infringement. They
probably will have the court authority to have this equipment destroyed.
   
     

[Ginger Prince]

soory guys still not there yet, because

if they are a different size to an 81, [ then they are not original?]

& if not original then why would you replicate in a non original size

GP

[Eric]

Sad thing is... he may (but I doubt) have gotten permission to make these
and part of the deal was to make it a different size to keep different enough
from an original.... though he'd have to pump put 100s to make the $ back
from the die.... man why not do something totally differnet like Barq's or
Orange Crush.... tons of different brands.... hope this is just a few bootleg
and they'll dissapear.... but someone needs to get measurements so we can
be prepared when RC 81s start popp'n up at shows.....

[MoonDawg]

    I'm betting these letters are exactly the same size as 81's

[Ginger Prince]

Well he had a tape measure in the original ebay listing

and at the the top of this thread. I dont have an RC81

so i have no idea, As to how to check.

Eric, you make a valid point in business many firms

allow or license production in a different scale or maybe to

put the slider copy embossing on an 81 as then people know

its not an original,


maybe someone can at least confirm,

whether size is as original or is not.



GP

[Gumbo]

Mine is in storage right now. I am going through a home build out project and put all my machines in a storage until I'm done. I did not want any of them to get damaged. I will be done in a few weeks, so I will pull my RC 81 out and take some measurements.  This kind of  stuff really makes me mad.    What do you all think we should do? Contact RC? Email the guy? Send him a link to this tread, so he can see what we all think of what he is doing? I feel we should all do something together. Voices are louder as a group! This kind of  is not good for our hobby. As I have said before: [i]If any of the vintage machines are repoped it will devalue what we all have and the hunt that we all love will be over. I'm sure you all agree with me, so we all need to act on this one before he is making the tools to repop your favorite machine! Remember the Coke 44! 

[Eric]

And some companies don't care... or really don't know enough about this area.
They may think some guy wants to make embossed royal crown cola signs... and
this is the final product... doubt many, or any, that gives the final word have even seen
a RC 81 or know what it is.
When I make the Coke signs... I didn't want to step on any toes and I'm a collector too.
I just wanted to put something out there that I could be proud of and give other
people/collectors a option to those tiny little signs. But I have them made out of
aluminum, originals weren't, I emboss where the originals weren't and the sizes are
a little off, and they are all dated in 2 places and the copyright (c) is at the end of
Cola. again originals weren't....
Heck I thought about repro'n glascock signs... but there aren't enough coolers
out there I think to do it.... wouldn't be worth it....
I bet if this guy had a die made it had to be around 10 grand unless it was
made overseas somewhere. And I agree with Moondawg... I bet it's the same size.
I thnk I said this before... there was a 7up embossing back about a year ago... I've seen 2 of them on eBay.... though I don't know if it was the right gauge metal but it was a weld in sign for a machine the seller said so.
 

[Creighton]

Problem is these repops are being made in South America or former eastern block countries where dies are cheap and US law can't touch them.

These folks do not have the same integrity that Eric does. Clearly marked and dated new signs are great for folks like me that can't afford the orginals any longer.

This is a huge problem with petro porcelain signs. All those collectors have been able to do is list known fakes and flag suspect eBay sellers. Sadly it was just a matter of time before it  branched out to other hobbies.
Creighton

[Eric]

I'm on a petro site quite a bit and there are porclein repro's that
are unbelievable.... made to look chipped and everything.....
it is really causing a stir on that site... made overseas they thing and
being passed of as originals...

[MoonDawg]

       With Royal Crown 81's selling from $10K to $20K this guy is
going to start some real trouble.

          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250168594801&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26catref%3DC6%26fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D100%26from%3DR10%26ftid%3D1%26fcd%3D2%26fccl%3D0%26mppfqy%3D250168594801%26satitle%3D250168594801%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC6%26sargn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3D93001%26sabfmts%3D1%26saobfmts%3Dinsif%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26saprclo%3D%26saprchi%3D%26fsop%3D2%2526fsoo%253D2%26fvi%3D1

          Someone could pretend to be a buyer and get his name and address? I'm guessing he is in Nevada.
          Then we let him know we are on to him and "discourage" him from using E-bay as an easy outlet. Craigs list too!
          Also pass this auction on to as many people we know who may fall victim to a "cheap RC 81" thereby discouraging any demand for a welded-on logo.
           
           This guy may not go to jail, but we're not going to make it easy for him to destroy
our hobby or indirectly bilk an investor.   

[Jim]

As another precaution, we can post the Serial Number range for the RC 81s provided it can be had as it has been some time since I've heard anyone referencing the serial numbers and quantities produced...

[sodaworks]

Jim, That's a great Idea!

[coke_and_stuff]

Serial numbers are a good idea are they all in sequence? or were they built at various times? If this guy had a die made wouldnt he be putting more on ebay as this one sold fairly quickly? Where are the other two?

Joey

[Jim]

As far as I can remember, the RC 81's were manufactured as one run in sequential order and only 200 may have been made...
Steve Jebb may have some additional info... Hopefully someone will have accurate data to post...l

[SIGNGUY]

Good Thoughts by all,,, I think though we do need to make the steps toward the copyright infingement... Who owns RC these days? I'lll do some digging tomorrow.. At least a letter or phone call to a few people with RC wouldn't hurt.. Not that we wanna lock the guy up, just stop him from selling something that could jeapordize this hobby.... someone should pose as a buyer and see if we can get this guy on the phone and explain to him the ramifications of such items ... weather original or not, it's not from an original RC machine and therefore should not be allowed out there on the market...
Just thoughts.

[MoonDawg]

see if we can get this guy on the phone and explain to him the ramifications of such items ...

    Wish we could have done this BEFORE someone spent $10K tooling this stamping equipment~

     Hmmmm.... wonder what's stopping them from directly stamping a generic door? 

     Serial numbers would be visible and usefull on the un-restored RC 81's, but this new wave of fakes will be restored and have a brand new stamped I.D. tag.  Buyer beware!

[Gumbo]

Ok, I just emailed him to see if I could get his phone number and name. I'll let everyone know what happens. I won't phone him until we all agree on what will be the best things to say. (Points). There are alot of  things I'll like to say. I bet he does not email me back with his name or number. 

[collecture]

I have learned from 47 years of living that sometimes I jump the gun and assume things - just to find out that I am wrong and feel like an idiot.

Could it be that this guy told Ginger he had two more in an attempt to scam her (outside of eBay) out of her money (being overseas)?

I think everybody should wait and see whether another pops up (or repops up).

While I am certainly as outraged as everyone else that somebody might have forged these RC embossings - let us give him the benefit of the doubt - innocent until proven guilty!

How many RC110's were made? Was it the same size embossing? Could a carry cooler be the same size embossing?

Before we go at this guy with guns blazing, lets see if we can get an explanation.

Another option is to contact eBay - they are against copyright infringement and, if they knew the value of the items affected, might take action against him. While this will not eliminate all his avenues for sale - it will take away a prominant one.

[Marvin]

I will have an RC 81 in the next week or 2 I will be reassembling for a friend of mine.  I should be able to get any measurements that would be needed. 

I looked at that auction and noticed it was only listed for about 2 hours.  Whoever bought it sure knew what they were getting into.

Does anyone think it will be possible to get any serial numbers from RC or maybe Vendo?

Marvin

[MoonDawg]

Could it be that this guy told Ginger he had two more in an attempt to scam her (outside of eBay) out of her money (being overseas)?

 
     He carries a very posative e-bay feedback selling gold nuggets...............

[Marvin]

What happened to the original dies?
In the gas hobby Ron Scobie makes the glass jar lids from original tooling.  Does that make them reproduction? 
I am by no means saying making them is OK, just looking at the other side of the story.  unless we hear from the seller we really have no way other than guessing.


Be carefull not to jump to conclusions.  I have a friend who was "drug through the mud" by some greedy power hungry people only on a hunch.

Marvin

[memorylane]

Hi everyone, I'll have the lettering size checked from the one in the Wolf Collection on Wed. Evening. I'll keep you posted.

[Eric]

I want to say Cadberry/Schwepts owns RC...maybe Dr Pepper 7up
Hmmmm I'd have to look....
But I looked for the other two on eBay couldn't find them..maybe he is scamming her...
I'd like to see pictures of the 2.... let's hope he doesn't have them and this was just cut fom a rusted out 81 and that's all this is.

[memorylane]

Here are the TRUE MEASUREMENTS of the RC-81 These should be on the money, they are from the RC-81 in the WOLF COLLECTION.

SERVE YOURSELF: 6 1/2" LONG The capitals- S, Y, L, F are 1" Tall the others are 1/2" tall

ROYAL CROWN: 12" Long and all the letters are 2" tall

BETTER TASTE CALLS FOR RC: The large letters are 1/2" tall and the Small letters are 1/4" tall and the letters RC are 3/4" tall

After seeing the true measurements, I would think this would be very hard to fake. Everyone needs to copy these down, if they are ever looking at one refinished to buy, you know what they need to be. Hope this helps everyone out. Curtis Kauffman, Memorylane Restorations

[memorylane]

81 From the WOLF COLLECTION

[Gumbo]

I email him through ebay a few days ago, asking for his name and Phone #. I got an ebay email back from someone else saying his was trying to email me and that I should email him at brianstevensaz@yahoo.com. Looks like I got his name,email address, and where he is from. Brian Stevens from AZ. No phone # yet. I have not email him through this new email address. Does anyone know him? What questions should I ask in my email (size, where it came from, ect.)? Please let me know what you all think.

[collecture]

Did you try googling his name and email?

[Eric]

I'd say I was restoring a VMC 81 and you think it would fit perfect on the door.
Ask him what machine he got it off of and if he has any more parts.