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Every once in awhile my Vendo 63 trips a breaker. Always,,,when turned on machine Is fine and all runs well until next time.
My question is,,,it's on a 20amp breaker which has other items on it also. Should this be a 30amp breaker ?

Ideal and less likely to cause visit's from the Fire Department is a dedicated 30 amp circuit for soda machines.
Creighton

Most soda machines should run on a 20amp. circuit ok.

Now is this 20amp dedicated or should it be 30amp if not dedicated ?

20 amp dedicated. If you go 30 amp make sure you use 10 gauge wire with no other high amp draw devices on it.

Lets say you have your machine and refrigerator on the same circuit. If they try to start at the same time you have a starting amp draw around 20 to 30 each on initial start up then drop to around 4 to 7 running. On start up you will have a large voltage drop because of the high amp draw causing the breaker to trip. Compressor damage can occur if two refrigerated devices are on the same circuit.

Appreciate it guys,,,thanks.

220, 221 .  .  . whatever it takes!

 :drinking: Tim :drinking:

So...are you trying to burn down your house?, these machines were designed to be on a 15 amp circuit. don't be stupid. geez.    read your machines spec. plate...If it's tripping the breaker somethings really really wrong.  :glare:

You know JohnieG......let us start from the beginning. There is no plate with this machine. Secondly,,I had no idea what amp it should be so that leaves me with coming to what I thought was about the best forum around.
Now for your question. No, I am not trying to burn my house down and sorry but I have mentioned several times I am new to restoring of soda vending machines.
I appreciate your information on this subject and a few other questions I've asked since signing on. To put it gently as possible,,I have over 30 years in the 12 volt world of street rods and only hope you don't have any stupid questions about this subject down the road but I will try very hard to not insinuate that you're stupid. 

       Ken, did you mean 20 to 30 total draw?  If not I'm confused too.

This will require a little more investigative work to identify what other devices/appliances are also on the same circuit.  Wire size is directly related to its amperage capacity and therefore would not recommend increasing the amperage breaker size to a higher value. This is definitely the quickest way to start a fire!  Since the higher amperage breaker will not trip as easily, the wire will then heat up and fail eventually causing problems with afire being one of these issues...
Detective work is the best bet here as I stated; however, with that said and perhaps this circuit has been operating at its rated capacity for some time, the breaker could be showing signs of fatigue/failure. Most 20 single pole breakers are inexpensive and can be replaced for less than $5. Just be sure the actual wire connected to this 20 circuit is actually 12 gauge wire and 14 gauge! I do not know any details of the house construction or other modifications to the home through any renovations but some contractors have done less than standard work...  I would hate to see you replace the current breaker with the same amperage only to find the wire is not rated for this amperage!

Very good and understand and appreciate the information and help. Will start the detective work and see what I discover. Sill a little confused on what size breaker it should be to begin with.

well... at least it wasn't me this time   :glare:

Your average 1/3 hp compressor will draw 29 amps on start up so what I was trying to say the total amp draw would be between 40 to 60 amps if two refrigerated units started at the same time. It is only for a second but it's more than enough to trip a breaker.

When I moved into my house right off the bat we had our microwave plugged in on the counter and the fridge was 10 feet away. the fridge started up when the microwave was on and popped the breaker. I had to run a new line for the fridge since it was on the same circuit as the whole kitchen.

My sentiments exactly! Since I'm a electrician and work mostly on fire restoration I'm intimate with these things.
Your 16 guage cord on the machine is probably only rated for 7 amps. If your tripping a 20 amp breaker you either have serious problems or a bad breaker.
Check draw with a clamp meter. you might as well just set the house on fire if you put in a 30 amp breaker and save yourself the trouble of the cord burning up. :biggrin:
Breaker size on any given circuit is determined by the wire size.

In the electric panel, you'll need to identify the wire size that feeds this circuit.
If it currently is on a 20 amp breaker, then I would hope the wire size is 12 gauge...
The wire size needs to be determined and then a breaker is matched to the wire size...
14 gauge wire = 15 amp breaker; 12 gauge wire = 20 amp; 10 gauge = 30 amp
Hope this clarifies a little better...

Correct!!
I have a feeling a new compressor is in your future.

Hey Derp (Derp=newbie in this case) 1st; I'm just warning you in a way that will get your attention, so I'm not going to sugar coat it...  :blush: two more pennies in the fuse box wont solve anything...so on we go.

2nd; you're not stupid at all, just not fully informed & looking for answers. PS I'm a Journeyman electrician, I work with 480/3 phase all day, so I don't F_around at all when it comes to electricity.  I want you to be safe.  You work with automotive systems, so you know most of the basics, this is good.

you need to know your machines amp draw. if you ID plate is missing, there is usually another plate on the Compressor deck itself, if that's gone or unreadable, then we're on our own.

So, anyway, if you have the machine on a 20 amp breaker & it's tripping, ( assuming it's not a GFI-breaker) then you will see a momentary surge of current upon startup maybe as much as 20+ amps & it should then drop down to about 4-8 amps typically within about 1-2 seconds MAX, depending on what size your compressor is. 

If it starts with a high Amp draw & stays there, then either it's mechanically seized up, ( called a locked rotor) the start/run relay is stuck/bad, or your run winding is open. But, if the breakers tripping before the compressors over current "clicks" off, then you have a hard short somewhere. unplug the machine.

I'd take the terminals off of the compressor & OHM check between each & the metal of the compressor housing to check for shorted windings, ( scratch through the paint to bare metal) anything other than infinity ( an open circuit, you know the drill)  it's a trashed compressor,

next measure between each of the terminals , you should be able to see both the start winding, run winding & common terminal respectively, you can see the pinout ID on the "pinned" topic at the top of the "refrigeration"  discussion area. if it checks out OK, proceed....

Go to home depot, go down the electrical aisle & get a handy dandy appliance "plug in line load" tester, it costs about $25.00  You plug it into the wall outlet & plug your machine into it with the thermostat in the off position, the display can be set for Amps or Watts, (you of course will be looking at the Amps draw) you should make sure the machine is about the only big appliance on that breakers line.

With the machine now plugged into the Load tester & the compressor OFF (via the thermostat) you will see the machines load on the line ( the evaporator fan, coinmech load, the lightup sign, etc.) make a note of it, It should read about maybe 2-amps....Now turn the thermostat ON & note the Amp draw, (hopefully before the breaker pops) a locked compressor will read high & stay there until the overload trips out ( sometimes it's also called the Clik-ette) or the houses circuit breaker trips. if so, it's going to have to be determined if the compressors really locked, of you have a bad start/run relay, an overcharged system. etc. See what you get & proceed from here.
 

what the hell's a "derp"??   :Oo:

oh... never mind.

a sampling of "DERP" faces....courtesy of my google images as pointed out by my teen son... :tounge:

Mega-man was the original once upon a time.

okay Man.... you win.

I ain't got nuthin'..... :down:

hahahahahah

JohnieG,,undertand all the info you have shared and by the way,,,have been called worse.....I think.lol Will check all this weekend and really do appreciate your and everyone else who shared their thoughts.
There is one more thing I'd like to share that may possibly narrow this down.,,,,possibly. The machine runs fine for one or two days and the 3 times it has tripped the breaker I have reset and plugged machine back in and all is fine for another 2 or 3 days. Now of course if I run compressor and unplug during compressor running and plug back in to soon,,,you can hear the click when just plugged in but no compressor run,,,,only after unplugged for 15 or 20 minutes. Does this add anything to the issue ? Also,,,plug itself has never been hot or even warm during compressor run or any other time. Also have a 110v power strip connected at compressor for 110v 30" LED's and 12v convertor plugged in strip also for neon.The DERP has spoken,,,I'm done.lol

Great post with ton's of info. Thanks all.

>>Also have a 110v power strip connected at compressor for 110v 30" LED's and 12v convertor plugged in strip also for neon.

Easier to sort out issues if you only work with direct power to suspect components one at a time.

Ask any and all questions.
Creighton

Rebel,
   I'm with JohnieG on this one, were not trying to be a$$-holes, as electricians we see this stuff everyday and know the danger of an overloaded circuit. I deal with burned down houses most every day and it's usually the same thing at every fire, space heaters, candles, power strips, DIY wiring, 90 percent of the time it's an overload. We really don't want you to burn your house down, were just getting your undivided attention.

I wish I could post pictures of the last fire I just finished but the 100 KB limit just doesn't let me show you anything. The lady kept resetting a tripped breaker due to running a space heater on a 15 amp circuit, when she woke up at 3 AM she could hear the crackling in the attic, she's lucky she got out alive. Breakers will only trip so many times, then all of a sudden they don't, then your wire becomes the last line of defense.

Interesting that you install low voltage stuff for street rods, I like dabbling in the LED stuff. Curious to see what the NEC does with low voltage requirements for the code, last I heard they were thinking about lowering the threshold to 10 volts, new code book comes out this month, you might need a license to install that stuff in the future  LOL!!

Trace out this circuit and get back to us and let us know everything that's on it.

yeah, it's kinda' like that.

LOL,,Not exactly but understand the point.

Oh,,,I understand the concern on everyone's part and I also have the same concerns and this is why I'm here. No argument at all just took me awhile to get through, what I call smoke and mirrors and wise cracks. Now JohnieG has gotten down to details in his last post so we're going to go from there and find out what be going on in my world.  I think it is a case of refrig. and machine being on same breaker and both kicking on about the same time but we'll find out what's on this line and run the tests mentioned.
Hey and guys I just needed info and appreciate it very much. Will get back with you after this weekend with an update.

No worries Sir.
Will get your machine sorted.
Please understand there are a bunch of "fly By" one hit wonder posters on this board. And a bunch of lurkers that do not contribute.
All I can say to them is pony up. Suspect they may have valuable information.
One never Knows. Any questions you may have just ask!
Creighton

Greighton,,,,thanks,,appreciate it. I understand. On the street rod forums I was among a few who ventured out beyond the normal and also because of my age(old)lol,,,weren't many things anyone would nail me on but the few times that happened it was an electrical issue. Guess you guessed that.lol
There is one other thing I discovered today,,the light that plugs in behind coin drop area gave me a little shock when I was holding it and my hand touch the coin box and when I screwed a 110v LED in the socket, it was very very dim but all other lights are normal.

The light bulb socket most likely has a loose wire, look at the rivets inside the socket where the wire connects. If they look burnt or corroded, replace it.

Didn't get a chance to do much today but did find I have GFI 20 amp breaker. Will get on the rest of this detective work tomorrow.

Just for clarification; this is the breaker that is intermittently tripping...?
If so, what other outlets are affected when it trips...?  IE. garage receptacles, bathroom(s) ...

Yes,,that is correct on tripping breaker. Didn't get a chance to check that out today. Had company all day but will be checking wire size and other things affected tomorrow plus the list JohieG gave me. The ID says outside and bathrooms but will verify tomorrow.

I think you've found the answer. :biggrin: :biggrin:
One quick question that might save you a bunch of time, has it ever tripped which stopped you from doing what you were doing, or does it trip and you don't notice it like at night or any other random time?
Reason I'm asking is we have to determine if it's tripping due to an overload or a ground fault.
Continue on!

It trips and don't notice and has been at night. You're getting spooky on me now.lol :biggrin:

If I was on a service call to your house the next question I would ask would be what's plugged in outside?

I hope you don't say a Vendo 63 :biggrin:

There are only two outside receptacles,,,one on the front of house with a lamp plugged in one side and nothing on the other. The second receptacle is on back of house or patio and the only thing plugged in there is a radio and the 7up machine.

Do the outdoor outlets have a in-use cover or are they exposed?

Is the lamp rated for outdoor use? I know you probably can't answer that so I'll ask is it a regular household lamp?

Is the 7 up machine the Vendo 63? If not what is it?

        I would disconnect this circuit temporarily and try running the compressor again.

  I agree. While I'm not an electrician, a shock and a dim bulb would indicate to me a possible ground fault,,,enough to trip a ground fault breaker. It might just be a socket, but worth a try for sure. This lurker contributed today  :smile:   Good luck!

I disagree!  :biggrin: :biggrin:  I can understand why you think this would cause a ground fault trip, but if it was how could he reset the breaker? :oops:

I heading off into another direction but need some more answers.

Yep,,they do have covers and the table lamp on front entrance is not an outside lamp but is out of the weather. Yes,,,,it is a Vendo 63.

After finding I had a GFI, I plugged the machine back in and ran all day yesterday and through the night with no tripping. Yesterday I did pull the coin slot light socket,this is before plugging machine back in,,,, cut it off and put wire screws on ends. Drilled rivet to look inside socket and no signs of short there. Wire ends still have the wire screws on them.
Appreciate you guys joining in on this.

Thanks and what questions do you have ? I'll do the best I can with an answer.

What's the weather been like.....  wet? :biggrin:

Dry,,very dry.

OK,

Verify that the bathrooms recepts are on that circuit, also check the garage when you shut it down.
This is the way houses were wired when GFI first came out, 1 GFI controlling all the outside stuff and concrete floors.

Tell us how many fridges and freezers you have in the garage? I'm sure this GFI is controlling the garage too.

Are you stating there are ONLY two receptacles/outlets on the GFI circuit...?
I find that odd... Are you sure the bathroom(s) and/or garage outlets are not on this circuit...?
Or even, as remote as it may seem, check any kitchen outlets that may be on this circuit!

I find it unusual the circuit remains energized for several days and then arbitrarily trips...
If there is a ground fault issue with the soda machine, the breaker would trip quickly, not wait a few days...
Any particular time of day this occurs...? Day or night...
If there is no other devices on this circuit and you are sure only the two receptacles are on the circuit, I would replace the GFI breaker. Thay have been know to go bad from time to time.  And the end of wasting time for you...

Jim,
   His breaker was labeled bathrooms and outside, I told him to check the garage also, I'm sure it's on that circuit.

Bathrooms are on same but nothing else other than the two outside receptacles with one on front having a lamp plugged in that is never turned on and on back,,,a radio and the Vendo 63. The times it's tripped have been at night. When I get up in the morning,,the breaker has tripped. Nothing plugged in bathroom receptacles other than when my wife plugs in her hairdryer but haven't made the connection with breaker tripping and her using it,,,will check.

Just plugged hair dryer in and ran,,no tripping.

OK!  That was going to be my next question, hair dryer use in the bathrooms but she would know if it tripped, so I pretty much rule out a overload.

I'll ask this again about in-use covers, does your cover have a door that the cord holds open, or is it the new one with a bubble cover you can close with a slot in the bottom for the cord to exit.
This pertains to both front and back recepts.

They are the covers cord keeps open.

I looked up your location on your profile and see your from Alabama, very humid I bet.

I'm going to also assume that your lamp and radio are always outside plugged in, day and night. The first thing I would recommend is that you get rid of both, in those humid conditions and rainy weather, devices not rated for outdoor use will corrode inside, ie sockets, control boards which can lead to a ground fault failure. This is most likely to happen at night from the dew. It doesn't matter if the device is on or off, a ground fault can be caused by water forming a connection between the neutral and ground of your device.

Also since your recepts have been open to the weather for along time you could have corrosion and or moisture inside causing the same failure, I would replace both the front and back recept and install an in-use cover, the new type.

I also think your GFCI breaker is fine, it's doing what it's supposed to, we have very little trouble with GFCI breakers unlike GFCI recepts which fail faster than CFL light bulbs. :biggrin:

I think your Vendo is fine, but you should run an amp check on it to see what it is pulling, you could have a semi-locked up compressor which has a bad spot and only catches occasionally, even it it did lock up your overload should go out before the breaker.

Yes,,both radio plugged in beside Vendo stays plugged in and is used. The lamp plugged in on front is not rated for outside and does stay plugged in also and both covers stay open even one not is use has been open for some time. The house was built in 1995 and all outside receps. look pretty rough even thought not exposed to rain or anything else and am sure it wouldn't hurt at all to replace. They are also not secured very well to brick.
Thank you for your information and help. Very much appreciate everyone's input and am going to backtrack and get some of the list down that JohnieG shared on the amp pull and others. Thanks to all for you input.

So in a summary,

1. Remove the radio and lamp and see what happens. you can just unplug them.
2. If it trips again, replace both recepts and covers.
3. If it trips again, replace bath recepts. Any recept on this circuit subject to moisture could trip the GFCI.
4. Only as a last resort would I replace the breaker, $40 depending on what brand panel you have.   Push-matic or Federal Pacific don't even ask. :darn: :darn:

The only thing rated for outdoor use there is the Vendo 63. :biggrin: :biggrin:  That's why I'm sure it's fine.

If your outside recepts are loose and looking pretty bad since they have been open forever, I can guarantee that's your problem. They need to be closed whenever possible.

Thanks for the information..have unplugged and plan on getting two new receps. for outside. Yes,,,the Vendo is for outdoor use according to label. Thanks again and will get back with everyone on results.

You must have found the nameplate, what does the amp draw say?
Post some pictures if you can. I would like to see those recepts on the outside.

no,,not the metal plate. This is on  paper sticker inside coin door.

This is what I'm talking about for an in use cover.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Weatherproof-Single-Outlet-Cover-Outdoor-Receptacle-Protector-3-1-Fast-Shipping-/171071312587

This would be my favorite in use cover, low profile and looks good. Available at Menards and most electrical wholesale houses.

http://www.taymac.com/products/plastic_covers/low_profile_in-use

The biggest problem is that you have a GFCI breaker, not GFCI receptacles. There has been a lot of problems with the GFCI breakers over the years that why everyone is going to the GFCI receptacles. The GFCI breakers that are used today are for dedicated circuits only, such as hot tubs, whirlpools etc.

Understand and have done a few searches on here and elsewhere to learn more about GFI breakers and receptacles.
Have had a lot going on here in the last few days and while the weather was still good, have been working on a few repairs to the shop building and while involved in that, ran across the metal ID plate which was in the bag the NRI Coin mech. was in the fellow through in with the sale. It is showing, 115v/6amps. Now,,from what I've read,,I'd like to change out the GFI breaker and for the bathrooms, am changing over to GFI receptacles and no GFI receptacle for plug behind machine on the back patio. My question is,,what size breaker should I get to replace the 20amp GFI breaker ? Keep in mind,,the Vendo will still be on this line along with bathrooms but bathrooms will have GFI receptacles.

Replace the breaker with the same amp rating provided the wire size is rated for the amperage rating.  I do not know any history of the house, so I do not recommend replacing any breaker without knowing the wire size for the circuit!

Back with you on this and thanks.