Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: CoolCat on September 29, 2006, 09:00:00 pm
I'm having trouble with the ammo belt in my C-51. I can't seem to get it adjusted so that the belt moves smoothly when it is loaded with drinks. The crank works fine when I insert a dime and I am not trying to move the belt. Similarly, the ammo belt seems to move okay when I assist it when it is loaded. I believe (I've been too lazy to unload the machine recently) that the crank and ammo belt move together fine when the machine is not loaded with drinks.
I have lubricated the spindles in the machine and they turn okay individually. I believe that one of the spindles may not be perfectly straight, but doesn't seem to be severely out of alignment.
Does anyone have experience adjusting these C-51's?
I have lubricated the spindles in the machine and they turn okay individually. I believe that one of the spindles may not be perfectly straight, but doesn't seem to be severely out of alignment.
Does anyone have experience adjusting these C-51's?
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: collecture on September 29, 2006, 09:52:54 pm
The information I readily have says to apply machine oil once a month on the ratchet and lubricate the bearings on the spindle with grease once every six months. Is the belt seated properly on all the spindles? Somewhere I think I have some belt timing information - I'll look this weekend.
Vintage Vending is currently auctioning an original C-51 manual on eBay which might be more detailed.
Vintage Vending is currently auctioning an original C-51 manual on eBay which might be more detailed.
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: 90grad on September 30, 2006, 03:05:36 pm
Tom,
Any info on timing would be greatly appreciated. My 51 works fine now, but when I got it, the crank would not return without help. I isolated it to the ratchet mech inside. I also had some bearings seized. I think they had some decades-old soda gunked up in them. Anyway, liberal amounts of silicone spray got it going smoothly. However, I didn't know there was anything out there regarding belt timing. I'd gladly pay you for a copy.
Thanks!
Any info on timing would be greatly appreciated. My 51 works fine now, but when I got it, the crank would not return without help. I isolated it to the ratchet mech inside. I also had some bearings seized. I think they had some decades-old soda gunked up in them. Anyway, liberal amounts of silicone spray got it going smoothly. However, I didn't know there was anything out there regarding belt timing. I'd gladly pay you for a copy.
Thanks!
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: collecture on September 30, 2006, 11:51:10 pm
Well, I guess after you turn 46, the memory starts to fail.
I did not find any info other than what I already wrote in the post above.
I have owned two Cav51's and the spindles were different. I seem to recall one actually had steel bearings and the other just plastic caps on each end (but my memory is failing, so I could be wrong).
I have had great luck however by putting parts in Chem-Dip, rinsing off with a garden hose nozzle and then re-greasing them. It gets all the old gunk out of there.
I have also taken rusted up casters off the old chest machines and soaked them in Muriatic Acid (pool acid). It will eat up all the rust and dissolve the gunk, but you better be sure everything is steel or it will eat it up - cast aluminum parts will be gone in minutes. You can also spray automotive degreaser on them.
I'd get as much of the old grease and gunk out of the bearings, etc as I could. Then use some white lithium grease on them - work them a little bit and put a little more grease on them before reinstalling.
Good Luck!
P.S. After looking at my Fun-Tronics C51 manual, I do not think the Vintage Vending manual has anything different other than some data sheets up front and some Meter Miser info at the end.
I did not find any info other than what I already wrote in the post above.
I have owned two Cav51's and the spindles were different. I seem to recall one actually had steel bearings and the other just plastic caps on each end (but my memory is failing, so I could be wrong).
I have had great luck however by putting parts in Chem-Dip, rinsing off with a garden hose nozzle and then re-greasing them. It gets all the old gunk out of there.
I have also taken rusted up casters off the old chest machines and soaked them in Muriatic Acid (pool acid). It will eat up all the rust and dissolve the gunk, but you better be sure everything is steel or it will eat it up - cast aluminum parts will be gone in minutes. You can also spray automotive degreaser on them.
I'd get as much of the old grease and gunk out of the bearings, etc as I could. Then use some white lithium grease on them - work them a little bit and put a little more grease on them before reinstalling.
Good Luck!
P.S. After looking at my Fun-Tronics C51 manual, I do not think the Vintage Vending manual has anything different other than some data sheets up front and some Meter Miser info at the end.
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: dprat1 on October 01, 2006, 11:05:17 pm
Just my 2 cents for what it is worth. Spindle bearings should "spin very freely". The added weight when loaded will compound the problem. When loaded, most of the weight and ride is on the upper spindle and the lower middle spindle. Check to see that the lower spindle(s) bracket is not adjusted too tight or loose and see that there is no rubbing between the belt at the lower middle spindle where it turns back up sharply. There should be some slack or hanging at the bottom. Are your spindle brackets tight? I do not see how there could be a "timing" issue with the C-51 belt. If I had to guess...I would say it is a bearing issue. I had one I thought was good enough.....until I had it all togeather.
Doug
Doug
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: CoolCat on October 01, 2006, 11:06:59 pm
Thanks for looking. The only information I had was what you posted... I guess I'll try to lubricate the bearings a bit more (I am already using white lithium grease) but haven't really touched the ratchet yet.
I believe the ammo belt is seated on the spindles properly. I wonder if my problem doesn't have something to do with how much pressure is being exerted on the top spingle and ratchet when the belt is loaded. I raised the lower shelf so that the belt rests slightly on it... this didn't seem to help. Another thing I have noticed is that when I begin to crank the belt, there is some play before the ratchet engages. I'm not convinced this is a problem, however.
By the way, I can't seem to get my pre-cool area loaded up with the 50 bottles claimed in the literature. I can only fit 8 bottles (alternating front and back) comfortably (have to force 9) per layer and can only seem to get four (as opposed to the 5 you see in pictures) layers easily... as a result, the pre-cool area isn't holding the advertised 50 bottles. Have the bottles changed size or shape slightly since the mid-50's?
I guess I should post this under refrigeration... but I've already started here. So, on I go... I'm having a couple of other minor issues as well (all in the area of minor adjustments, I hope). I'm getting a fair amount of condensation. I have to empty my mason jar twice a day, or it will overflow. I put a new seal on the door, and it seems tight. I'm getting the condensation over a wide range of temperatures.
I also got a new compressor and condensor deck from Global. It works great, but is a bit noisy. I don't know if I'm getting too much vibration because I didn't bolt the deck to the machine. Is this the cause of my noise? Or, is the compressor just noisy? I recently heard an original V-110 in operation and it is no louder than my refrigerator. I'm hoping to get my C-51 as quiet. Any suggestions?
I believe the ammo belt is seated on the spindles properly. I wonder if my problem doesn't have something to do with how much pressure is being exerted on the top spingle and ratchet when the belt is loaded. I raised the lower shelf so that the belt rests slightly on it... this didn't seem to help. Another thing I have noticed is that when I begin to crank the belt, there is some play before the ratchet engages. I'm not convinced this is a problem, however.
By the way, I can't seem to get my pre-cool area loaded up with the 50 bottles claimed in the literature. I can only fit 8 bottles (alternating front and back) comfortably (have to force 9) per layer and can only seem to get four (as opposed to the 5 you see in pictures) layers easily... as a result, the pre-cool area isn't holding the advertised 50 bottles. Have the bottles changed size or shape slightly since the mid-50's?
I guess I should post this under refrigeration... but I've already started here. So, on I go... I'm having a couple of other minor issues as well (all in the area of minor adjustments, I hope). I'm getting a fair amount of condensation. I have to empty my mason jar twice a day, or it will overflow. I put a new seal on the door, and it seems tight. I'm getting the condensation over a wide range of temperatures.
I also got a new compressor and condensor deck from Global. It works great, but is a bit noisy. I don't know if I'm getting too much vibration because I didn't bolt the deck to the machine. Is this the cause of my noise? Or, is the compressor just noisy? I recently heard an original V-110 in operation and it is no louder than my refrigerator. I'm hoping to get my C-51 as quiet. Any suggestions?
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: collecture on October 01, 2006, 11:57:39 pm
I would take the spindles off and take them apart and give them a good cleaning (there is nothing to them (a tube, a couple of bearings and two caps). Get all the old grease out, relube and reassemble. While you have the belt off, go ahead and do the ratchet too.
Oh - don't forget to put a block under the front door. Sorry again Pat!
I would certainly bolt it down. Usually with the compressor running, you can track down source the noise. Sometimes it is the cap tube vibrating against something - other times it might be that the condenser coils aren't secured tightly enough (if Eric just redid the deck, I can't imagine that this is the problem). Get your ear down by the compressor compartment and press on certain parts and see if you can isolate the noise (careful of the fan though).
Oh - don't forget to put a block under the front door. Sorry again Pat!
QUOTE
I don't know if I'm getting too much vibration because I didn't bolt the deck to the machine. Is this the cause of my noise?
I would certainly bolt it down. Usually with the compressor running, you can track down source the noise. Sometimes it is the cap tube vibrating against something - other times it might be that the condenser coils aren't secured tightly enough (if Eric just redid the deck, I can't imagine that this is the problem). Get your ear down by the compressor compartment and press on certain parts and see if you can isolate the noise (careful of the fan though).
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: sodaworks on October 02, 2006, 10:44:29 am
I would start by removing the spindles and clean the bearings with a degreaser until they work freely.
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: CoolCat on October 02, 2006, 09:55:23 pm
Thanks, guys. I'll get my ear down by the compressor and see what I can track down. Now that it's been mentioned, I suspect the cap tube is vibrating against something... I recall, that it was rather close.
I'll also pull the ammo belt and re-lubricate... and block the main door. Sorry, Pat. I think your experience is going to make me much more careful in the future, though.
Thanks, again.
I'll also pull the ammo belt and re-lubricate... and block the main door. Sorry, Pat. I think your experience is going to make me much more careful in the future, though.
Thanks, again.
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: collecture on October 02, 2006, 11:22:35 pm
QUOTE
I'll also pull the ammo belt and re-lubricate...
Make sure you degrease them thoroughly before you regrease them. I have seen some old grease that is as hard as rock now.
Title: Cavalier C-51 Problem
Post by: CoolCat on October 09, 2006, 11:18:46 pm
I've been out of town... and itching to work on my little problems. Thanks for all of you help, guys.
I seem to have finally fixed the problem with the ammo belt. I broke down and emptied the machine, and took off the ammo belt. I removed the ratchet assembly and lubricated it. The biggest problem I had was not with rock-hard grease... A degreaser had taken care of that problem a while back. The problem was that there was a small amount rust on the spindles (front and back) that was preventing the bearings from rotating freely. So, I sanded the rusted areas... used a penetrating oil... cleaned that all up... then lubricated with lithium grease front to back. Now everything turns smoothly. I put enough grease on that I don't think I'll get any rust-back. I have attached a picture of the ammo belt and lower spindles.
Another issue I noticed was that the way you run the ammo belt also has something to do with how the belt moves. You can see in the picture that the belt rides in front of the center roller slightly... while the belt rides with its lips over the front and back of the spindle. If I try to run the belt in this manner over the center roller, it binds up. I also thought it might make things smoother if I ran the belt the same way (with the back of the belt in front of the rear lip of the roller and the front lip of the belt in front of the front lip of the roller) on the lower rollers. This didn't work out very well. After a couple of cranks, the belt would bind up on me. At any rate, all seems to be cranking away with no problems at this point (knock on wood).
I also tried to quiet down the machine... unfortunately, I haven't been as successful with this endeavor. I have gotten things a little quieter by pulling the cap tubes and such away from the body of the machine, and tightening down the compressor mounts and fan mount. This seems to only be a part of the issue. I have not bolted down the deck, but that seems to be of little consequence based on my experiments to this point. The good news is that it is quieter... the irritating thing is that I can always here a bit of compressor noise over the sound of the evaporator fan. Is it possible that this compressor is just a little bit noisy?
By the way, I will post a couple of pics of the outside of my machine in the appropriate forum...
I seem to have finally fixed the problem with the ammo belt.
I broke down and emptied the machine, and took off the ammo belt. I removed the ratchet assembly and lubricated it. The biggest problem I had was not with rock-hard grease... A degreaser had taken care of that problem a while back. The problem was that there was a small amount rust on the spindles (front and back) that was preventing the bearings from rotating freely. So, I sanded the rusted areas... used a penetrating oil... cleaned that all up... then lubricated with lithium grease front to back. Now everything turns smoothly. I put enough grease on that I don't think I'll get any rust-back. I have attached a picture of the ammo belt and lower spindles.Another issue I noticed was that the way you run the ammo belt also has something to do with how the belt moves. You can see in the picture that the belt rides in front of the center roller slightly... while the belt rides with its lips over the front and back of the spindle. If I try to run the belt in this manner over the center roller, it binds up. I also thought it might make things smoother if I ran the belt the same way (with the back of the belt in front of the rear lip of the roller and the front lip of the belt in front of the front lip of the roller) on the lower rollers. This didn't work out very well. After a couple of cranks, the belt would bind up on me. At any rate, all seems to be cranking away with no problems at this point (knock on wood).
I also tried to quiet down the machine... unfortunately, I haven't been as successful with this endeavor. I have gotten things a little quieter by pulling the cap tubes and such away from the body of the machine, and tightening down the compressor mounts and fan mount. This seems to only be a part of the issue. I have not bolted down the deck, but that seems to be of little consequence based on my experiments to this point. The good news is that it is quieter... the irritating thing is that I can always here a bit of compressor noise over the sound of the evaporator fan. Is it possible that this compressor is just a little bit noisy?
By the way, I will post a couple of pics of the outside of my machine in the appropriate forum...