Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 10, 2006, 08:40:15 pm
Hi guys,
Just wanted to query a couple of things about classic pacman:
1) If pacman hits a ghost after eating the last dot in the maze, does he still die ?
2) Can the ghosts change direction when pacman approaches ? (ie. ghost is heading right, pacman is behind, ghost stops and goes left)
I ask about the first because I was playing a web version of pacman and I happened to get hit by a ghost just as I ate the last dot and finished the level. It loaded the next level and then immediately took one life. Is this correct behaviour ?
As for number 2.. the ghosts in this copy keep moving the same direction until they either hit a wall or pacman eats one of the flashing dots (sorry I don't know the name for these).
I really wish I could play the real thing, but a cabinet or even a cocktail is way outta my price range, and as it is I have to get rid of my squaretop incase we move in coming months.
If I was to some day purchase a cheap dedicated upright, could I turn around and put a different board in for pacman or another classic ? (I know there are emulators with like 50+ games on one board, but I want the real thing)
Just wanted to query a couple of things about classic pacman:
1) If pacman hits a ghost after eating the last dot in the maze, does he still die ?
2) Can the ghosts change direction when pacman approaches ? (ie. ghost is heading right, pacman is behind, ghost stops and goes left)
I ask about the first because I was playing a web version of pacman and I happened to get hit by a ghost just as I ate the last dot and finished the level. It loaded the next level and then immediately took one life. Is this correct behaviour ?
As for number 2.. the ghosts in this copy keep moving the same direction until they either hit a wall or pacman eats one of the flashing dots (sorry I don't know the name for these).
I really wish I could play the real thing, but a cabinet or even a cocktail is way outta my price range, and as it is I have to get rid of my squaretop incase we move in coming months.
If I was to some day purchase a cheap dedicated upright, could I turn around and put a different board in for pacman or another classic ? (I know there are emulators with like 50+ games on one board, but I want the real thing)
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 10, 2006, 09:35:28 pm
#1 - After you eat the last dot, the screen is over - even if a ghost is right on the other side of the eaten dot - YOU WILL NOT DIE!
#2 - Yes, but the eyes will go the direction that the ghost is going to go a split second before it chagnes course.
#3 - In the older games the pin outs were different for each game (Ms. Pac Man is just a chip modification so Ms. Pac will play in a Pac cabinet). You could put a JAMMA harness on a game and use a JAMMA adapter on each PCB. JAMMA is a standard pinout. If you want to look at some pinouts for games, Mikes Arcade has a good list here.
#2 - Yes, but the eyes will go the direction that the ghost is going to go a split second before it chagnes course.
#3 - In the older games the pin outs were different for each game (Ms. Pac Man is just a chip modification so Ms. Pac will play in a Pac cabinet). You could put a JAMMA harness on a game and use a JAMMA adapter on each PCB. JAMMA is a standard pinout. If you want to look at some pinouts for games, Mikes Arcade has a good list here.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 10, 2006, 09:47:40 pm
The Doctor is in!
Nice to have some arcade chat here.
Nice to have some arcade chat here.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 10, 2006, 09:50:08 pm
I recently acquired a cocktail table arcade game for next to nothing that is a faux Ms. Pac-man. It is called "Pac-Gal". Except for the small Pac-Gal print on the initial splash screen, it is identical to the real thing. Still, I'd rather have an original coctail Ms. Pac-man... worth thousands more. 
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 10, 2006, 10:22:38 pm
Something tells me a generic (ms) pac-man would be the closest thing I would get my hands on..
I love the classics like pac-man, space invaders, etc.. but these days you hardly see cabinets/cocktails and when you do it's something like street fighter..
I'm a big pinball fanatic too.. I can't play to save myself, but I still enjoy it..
I must admit it's a lot easier to find anything coin operated in this part of the world.. back in Australia I couldn't find a single pop machine for sale.. (actually not a single coin-op of any variety)..
I love the classics like pac-man, space invaders, etc.. but these days you hardly see cabinets/cocktails and when you do it's something like street fighter..
I'm a big pinball fanatic too.. I can't play to save myself, but I still enjoy it..
I must admit it's a lot easier to find anything coin operated in this part of the world.. back in Australia I couldn't find a single pop machine for sale.. (actually not a single coin-op of any variety)..
Title: Pacman question
Post by: petey64 on April 10, 2006, 10:49:28 pm
I love those games as well, i would like to get a pinball machine but i do not really know what to look for when trying to buy one.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 10, 2006, 11:59:22 pm
| Quote (petey64 @ April 10 2006,11:49) |
| I love those games as well, i would like to get a pinball machine but i do not really know what to look for when trying to buy one. |
Sounds like you've come to the right place then.. If it's coin operated in any way shape or form, someone here will help
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 11, 2006, 12:08:27 am
| Quote (dr galaga @ April 10 2006,10:35) |
| #1 - After you eat the last dot, the screen is over - even if a ghost is right on the other side of the eaten dot - YOU WILL NOT DIE! #2 - Yes, but the eyes will go the direction that the ghost is going to go a split second before it chagnes course. #3 - In the older games the pin outs were different for each game (Ms. Pac Man is just a chip modification so Ms. Pac will play in a Pac cabinet). You could put a JAMMA harness on a game and use a JAMMA adapter on each PCB. JAMMA is a standard pinout. If you want to look at some pinouts for games, Mikes Arcade has a good list here. |
That pinout information is quite interesting.. how does a JAMMA harness work ? I'm guessing like this ??
PCB -> JAMMA -> ROM
How does the JAMMA know the pinout for a particular game ? is this something you set manually ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 11, 2006, 05:13:27 pm
If you look at an arcade PCB (Printed Circuit Board) you will see at least one long connector (my Atari cabinets have 2). Each connection does something - electicity input, ground, player one left, player two up, player one fire, etc. (and there are connections on both sides of the board, which is why you see part side and solder side). In order to have a JAMMA cabinet, it has to be wired with a JAMMA harness. My Ms. Pac-Man cocktail has a JAMMA harness installed in it (probably when it was converted from it's original game - Galaxian). The person then ran wires from the harness to all of the proper spots (joysticks, fire buttons, player start, coin door, monitor, etc.). My Ms. Pac-Man PCB has a JAMMA adapter on it like this:
The blue side plugs in to the PCB and the other side connects to the cabinet harness. This adapter then takes all of the pins on the PCB and routes them to the correct pins for the harness.
There are some good close-ups of PCB connections on this page.
The blue side plugs in to the PCB and the other side connects to the cabinet harness. This adapter then takes all of the pins on the PCB and routes them to the correct pins for the harness.
There are some good close-ups of PCB connections on this page.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 11, 2006, 05:34:59 pm
Is that where the name Dr Galaga comes from ?
When you get to like level 10 or so in Pacman, do you really just keep collecting keys ? I noticed it went fruits, then some battleship (?), then a bell, and from there just keys for every subsequent level..
This is what I'm playing:
http://www.smiliegames.com/pacman/index.php3
Maybe someone can tell me how close to the original pacman it is.. I'm almost certain it doesn't have the hiding spots above the ghost pen in middle of the maze.. (supposedly if the ghosts don't see you, you can stay there indefinately)
When you get to like level 10 or so in Pacman, do you really just keep collecting keys ? I noticed it went fruits, then some battleship (?), then a bell, and from there just keys for every subsequent level..
This is what I'm playing:
http://www.smiliegames.com/pacman/index.php3
Maybe someone can tell me how close to the original pacman it is.. I'm almost certain it doesn't have the hiding spots above the ghost pen in middle of the maze.. (supposedly if the ghosts don't see you, you can stay there indefinately)
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 11, 2006, 05:50:23 pm
So the original game PCB's connect to the other side of the JAMMA harness, or you have to buy remakes designed for use with JAMMA ?
I've never seen inside a cabinet, so I don't have much idea how the whole setup works.. (I was thinking something like an old atari.. where you have the PCB which connects to the screen and all the controls, and a catridge (smaller PCB with a plastic box around it) plugs into that.. (and then to change the game you just put in a different catridge)
My other theory was that you had the main PCB and then just a chip (ROM) that held the game.. so if you wanted to change the game, you just swap out the chip.. guessing I'm way off here ?
I've never seen inside a cabinet, so I don't have much idea how the whole setup works.. (I was thinking something like an old atari.. where you have the PCB which connects to the screen and all the controls, and a catridge (smaller PCB with a plastic box around it) plugs into that.. (and then to change the game you just put in a different catridge)
My other theory was that you had the main PCB and then just a chip (ROM) that held the game.. so if you wanted to change the game, you just swap out the chip.. guessing I'm way off here ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 11, 2006, 06:35:45 pm
With the "classic" games that you are talking about, you have to swap the whole PCB. In the mid 80's there were a few where you just replaced a cartridge. The PCB of my Galaga (Galaga was the first game I got and I started on arcade and video forums. I just kept the same user name so it would be easier for me to remember.) is close to 18" x 12" and there are actually 2 PBC sandwiched together. The Centipede I have is only one board, but is even larger (larger than a copy paper box lid). Pac-Man is a little smaller. This weekend I have to tinker so I'll try to get a few pics inside of the games. The PCB is mounted to the side of the cabinet, the power supply is on the bottom and the monitor is mounted to a shelf. Almost every classic (late 70's, early 80's) game has a different PCB, so ROM switching really isn't an option (except converting Pac-Man to Ms. Pac-Man, since it is the same board, just different chips).
To the casual observer the Pacman that you are playing is pretty close, but after you play the real thing you will notice some differences. The ones that caught my eye were: fruit appeared late, if Pac is in an area of no dots he should go faster, when you eat a super pellet the ghosts don't reverse direction, when Pac eats a ghost there is no slight pause of the screen. If you have $20 (at least here in the US) go out and buy a Pac-Man plug & play. I'm not sure if I gave this to you before, but there is a lot of Pac info here.
To the casual observer the Pacman that you are playing is pretty close, but after you play the real thing you will notice some differences. The ones that caught my eye were: fruit appeared late, if Pac is in an area of no dots he should go faster, when you eat a super pellet the ghosts don't reverse direction, when Pac eats a ghost there is no slight pause of the screen. If you have $20 (at least here in the US) go out and buy a Pac-Man plug & play. I'm not sure if I gave this to you before, but there is a lot of Pac info here.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 11, 2006, 07:39:13 pm
I too will try to take some pics inside some of my machines.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 11, 2006, 08:15:56 pm
I forgot that I have my Asteroids in the middle of the room (have to move it to the in-laws due to lack of space). So here you go.
The first pic shows how things are situated - in this machine. Very tippy top is the monitor, below it is a small board (with a big heat sink) is the voltage regulator and audio amp (for some reason Atari built the audio amp in to part of the power supply). Below that is the PCB - which is almost as deep as the cabinet. The bottom left is the coin door and coin bucket (with lockable lid).
Pic 2 is the PCB. The brighter green thing in the lower left is a high score save kit that I added.
The first pic shows how things are situated - in this machine. Very tippy top is the monitor, below it is a small board (with a big heat sink) is the voltage regulator and audio amp (for some reason Atari built the audio amp in to part of the power supply). Below that is the PCB - which is almost as deep as the cabinet. The bottom left is the coin door and coin bucket (with lockable lid).
Pic 2 is the PCB. The brighter green thing in the lower left is a high score save kit that I added.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 11, 2006, 08:23:00 pm
Next pic shows the actual power supply.
The last picture shows the monitor. This is a vector monitor, a Pac-Man is a raster monitor (like your TV).
I have to make some adjustments to my Ms. Pac-Man cocktail this weekend. I'll take some pics so you can see how it is set up (JAMMA adapter and all).
What machines do you have left Markito? I think you said that you got a Space Invaders. Nice thing about that board is that it has a composite output on the board, so you can test the PCB directly to a TV or VCR if you think the monitor is bad (my friend who has my old Pepsi machine did this).
The last picture shows the monitor. This is a vector monitor, a Pac-Man is a raster monitor (like your TV).
I have to make some adjustments to my Ms. Pac-Man cocktail this weekend. I'll take some pics so you can see how it is set up (JAMMA adapter and all).
What machines do you have left Markito? I think you said that you got a Space Invaders. Nice thing about that board is that it has a composite output on the board, so you can test the PCB directly to a TV or VCR if you think the monitor is bad (my friend who has my old Pepsi machine did this).
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 11, 2006, 09:37:38 pm
Wow.. I really gotta own one of those things some day.. never heard of vector monitors before.. I'm familliar with raster/vector graphics but I didn't know it extended into hardware..
Are the composite ouputs only for testing, or could you replace the original monitor with a TV set if you had to ?
It almost looks like if I had the PCB and power supply I could improvise some kinda enclosure until I could afford a cabinet. I see you can get RGB to composite adapters for boards that aren't already equipped with a composite output.
I thot arcade machines were a lot more complicated.. but they appear to be built just like a PC with a coin mech ! (enclosure, power supply, mainboard, inputs and display)
Did a lot of games use Z80 processors ? I had a portable (luggable) computer with a Z80 CPU..
Last but not least, do they have like sound/graphics processing units or everything done by a central CPU ?
Are the composite ouputs only for testing, or could you replace the original monitor with a TV set if you had to ?
It almost looks like if I had the PCB and power supply I could improvise some kinda enclosure until I could afford a cabinet. I see you can get RGB to composite adapters for boards that aren't already equipped with a composite output.
I thot arcade machines were a lot more complicated.. but they appear to be built just like a PC with a coin mech ! (enclosure, power supply, mainboard, inputs and display)
Did a lot of games use Z80 processors ? I had a portable (luggable) computer with a Z80 CPU..
Last but not least, do they have like sound/graphics processing units or everything done by a central CPU ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 11, 2006, 09:42:01 pm
It doesn't look like it would be that difficult to build my own arcade machine.. apart from perhaps the monitor.. (I can see those being heavy and expensive)
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 12, 2006, 12:05:38 am
Not too expensive for a monitor. $100-$200 used.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 12, 2006, 01:11:56 am
I see the idea behind the JAMMA harness now.. you can swap the PCB for any other JAMMA board as you please.. and it even looks like you can get adapters to convert older boards to JAMMA..
Are the monitors cross-compatible ? (e.g. any raster game works with any raster monitor)
I know you can get adapters for composite/s-video.. so I wonder if you can get vga adapters.. (so I could substitute a CRT computer monitor)..
All of this is wishful thinking at the moment.. but I'm thinking I can build my own rig as I can afford it.. ($50 here and $100 there I can manage.. $500 or $600 in one shot isn't gonna happen)
Can you buy the wooden cabinets in a flat-pack at all ?
Are the monitors cross-compatible ? (e.g. any raster game works with any raster monitor)
I know you can get adapters for composite/s-video.. so I wonder if you can get vga adapters.. (so I could substitute a CRT computer monitor)..
All of this is wishful thinking at the moment.. but I'm thinking I can build my own rig as I can afford it.. ($50 here and $100 there I can manage.. $500 or $600 in one shot isn't gonna happen)
Can you buy the wooden cabinets in a flat-pack at all ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: SIGNGUY on April 12, 2006, 10:42:34 am
I'm not to into the PCB, Jamma, Gamma stuff,, but All I know is the original is much better than the computer webgame you linked to earlier in the post.. at least buy the one Doc told you about from Namco until the real one comes around... one will turn up for you eventually in your price range, just keep an eye out. I just bought the 96 in 1 Game Board from Mikes, haven't installed it yet as I'm scared to touch the board because I feel I might break something... I hope to tackle this over the weekend. any tips from anyone on the install of this thing would be great.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 12, 2006, 12:16:21 pm
What do I need in order to use an arcade PCB ? Just the power supply and controls ? (and a composite adaptor until I can get a dedicated monitor)
I'm assuming if you set a game to free play via the DIP switches, you don't need a coin mech ?
What is the "service credit" pin on the wiring harness/connector ? Just a free credit button ? (momentary switch)
I'm assuming if you set a game to free play via the DIP switches, you don't need a coin mech ?
What is the "service credit" pin on the wiring harness/connector ? Just a free credit button ? (momentary switch)
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 12, 2006, 04:39:11 pm
One more small question... what voltages do the PCB's use ? I usually have a spare computer power supply laying around, and that provides regulated +5v and +12v DC.. would this be suitable as a temporary thing til I got a real power supply ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 12, 2006, 04:55:53 pm
Service credit is for a switch that is inside the coin door. This will give you free credits with out registering on the coin counter. This is so the technician can test a game. There is also a service switch that puts the game in to self-test mode so that you can make sure everything is wokring (usually bad ROMs will show up and you can test all of the switches).
Some games have free play via dip switches, some don't. You can always wire a push button to a coin switch or the service credit switch so that you don't have to insert a coin. I modified my coin mechs to accept anything smaller than a quarter and I bought a bunch of (cheap) oddball tokens.
Only some older games have a composite output. Most of them have an RGB type of signal.
Some PCBs have the audio built in to the main board, and some have it on an external board.
You can buy new cabinets, but they are kind of pricey. Watch ebay for empty cabinets or ones with non-working or crappy games that you can get real cheap.
Yes, you can swap raster monitors (for the most part). Some games are vertical and some are horizontal - it all depends on which way you mount the monitor.
Your voltage question is yes and no. Some games you have to do a modification to get them to run off of a 5v and 12v PS (like Pac-Man).
SIGNGUY - don't be afraid to put the 96-in-1 kit in. Mike Doyle is good about helping you out. When I put my kit in I put a chip in the wrong socket. I emailed him and attached a pic of the screen and of the board and he got back to me in a few hours and said to move a chip over because it is in the wrong socket
! Just make sure you have a chip puller and pull straight up (and place straight down).
Some games have free play via dip switches, some don't. You can always wire a push button to a coin switch or the service credit switch so that you don't have to insert a coin. I modified my coin mechs to accept anything smaller than a quarter and I bought a bunch of (cheap) oddball tokens.
Only some older games have a composite output. Most of them have an RGB type of signal.
Some PCBs have the audio built in to the main board, and some have it on an external board.
You can buy new cabinets, but they are kind of pricey. Watch ebay for empty cabinets or ones with non-working or crappy games that you can get real cheap.
Yes, you can swap raster monitors (for the most part). Some games are vertical and some are horizontal - it all depends on which way you mount the monitor.
Your voltage question is yes and no. Some games you have to do a modification to get them to run off of a 5v and 12v PS (like Pac-Man).
SIGNGUY - don't be afraid to put the 96-in-1 kit in. Mike Doyle is good about helping you out. When I put my kit in I put a chip in the wrong socket. I emailed him and attached a pic of the screen and of the board and he got back to me in a few hours and said to move a chip over because it is in the wrong socket
! Just make sure you have a chip puller and pull straight up (and place straight down).Title: Pacman question
Post by: Creighton on April 12, 2006, 07:31:18 pm
Great info!! Carefull of static electricity around PCB's. Wrist grounding strap is worth every penny.
Creighton
Creighton
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 12, 2006, 10:31:29 pm
I dediced to get a feel for the original pacman by downloading MAME and hunting down the ROMs.. the original is nothing like the Java version I was playing... everything is like 2x faster and the ghosts are much smarter.. was a challenge just to pass the first couple of levels..
I will keep an eye out for an old cabinet.. I definately want a true setup.. (MAME is just so I can try out games on my home PC.. I wouldn't use it for a cabinet)
I will keep an eye out for an old cabinet.. I definately want a true setup.. (MAME is just so I can try out games on my home PC.. I wouldn't use it for a cabinet)
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 13, 2006, 11:14:04 am
Hey bones, here is an original dedicated Pac-man machine that just came up for sale in my area:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ele/150836187.html
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ele/150836187.html
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 13, 2006, 12:32:59 pm
| Quote (Markito @ April 13 2006,12:14) |
| Hey bones, here is an original dedicated Pac-man machine that just came up for sale in my area: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ele/150836187.html |
Wow.. looks neat.. but $850 is way outta my price range.. Can the empty cabinets be easily dissasembled for shipping ?
I ask because when I do have the cash to spare, my budget will likely be $150 - $180 tops for the machine, so $200+ shipping and crating is a little much..
That's why I've let a few bargains go on ebay.. I could've had two squaretops in fair condition for $150.. but would've paid nearly 3x that in shipping..
Title: Pacman question
Post by: loman4ec on April 13, 2006, 05:35:43 pm
Keep your eye onn the auction section of the newspaper. There is a traveling auction for arcade games. I went this past year in Memphis and found some bargans. I didn't need a pacman because I already have one but there were aver a dozen of them and they were selling rather cheep. SOme of the really nice ones were expensive but the ones with some bumps and scratches were going for the $200 to $300 range. I bought one local for $400 for my nephew last year as well.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 13, 2006, 08:43:23 pm
$200 and local would be great.. I'll keep my eyes peeled.. bumps and scratches are no problem.. I want it to play, not to sit and look pretty
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 14, 2006, 12:56:37 pm
I saw this in another forum today. It shows all the Pac Man patterns, plus there are videos that show the patterns in action!
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 14, 2006, 08:53:44 pm
Hey Doc, c'mon, admit it that you own the vinyl record of Buckner & Garcia's early 80's one-hit-wonder "Pac-man Fever" which shows the patterns on the paper inner sleeve inside the album jacket. 
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 15, 2006, 09:45:52 am
Yep, I own the record album, original 45 (with in instrumental on the other side) and the reissue 45 (with Do The Donkey Kong on the flip side - which made it to the Bubbling Under charts and is better than Pac-Man Fever in my opinion).
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 15, 2006, 10:19:03 am
Me too. You and I have too much in common in the nerdy arcade department.
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 15, 2006, 10:59:43 am
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 15, 2006, 12:11:40 pm
I wish that they put Froggy's Lament on 45 
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on April 17, 2006, 03:23:17 pm
Title: Pacman question
Post by: on April 18, 2006, 12:03:56 am
Oh Dave!!!!!!!!
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on April 30, 2006, 06:31:38 pm
Sorry it took so long for me to take some pics of my cocktail. I haven't had any time to play games, let alone fix them!
First pic shows the (Ms. Pac-Man) PCB attached to the side of the (originally Galaxian) cabinet. It just barely fits! The yellow arrow is pointing to the JAMMA adapter.
The second pic also shows the monitor.
There is a switching power supply on the bottom in addition to the old power supply. The lights and PCB are hooked up to the switching power supply and the switching PS and monitor are hooked up the the old PS.
I got the red working again (kind of hard to play Pac-Man with no red colors), so I'm off to play some games!
First pic shows the (Ms. Pac-Man) PCB attached to the side of the (originally Galaxian) cabinet. It just barely fits! The yellow arrow is pointing to the JAMMA adapter.
The second pic also shows the monitor.
There is a switching power supply on the bottom in addition to the old power supply. The lights and PCB are hooked up to the switching power supply and the switching PS and monitor are hooked up the the old PS.
I got the red working again (kind of hard to play Pac-Man with no red colors), so I'm off to play some games!
Title: Pacman question
Post by: Skeleton Man on May 02, 2006, 02:07:35 am
Why the two power supplies ?
Title: Pacman question
Post by: dr galaga on May 05, 2006, 09:48:55 pm
No real reason for two power supplies. Looks like they just tapped in the new one at the old one instead of hacking up the power cable (at least that's my guess).