Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: on June 13, 2005, 04:01:15 pm
Hello, this probably has been asked before, I just couldnt find it in a search. So here it goes again..
Will this R-12 Freon thats being sold on Ebay work to refill soda machines?
Freon R-12
Will this R-12 Freon thats being sold on Ebay work to refill soda machines?
Freon R-12
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: BrianB on June 13, 2005, 06:52:27 pm
First off, it's good that you asked first before purchasing. The product that you are looking at is NOT plain old R-12 Freon. It is however R-12A (Note the "A"). It is different in composition and does not have the same performance characteristics.
Another problem with this is that the can utilizes R-134A connectors vice R-12 connectors. So, if your refrigeration deck in you soda pop machine already has a tap valve or Schraeder Valve installed it is more than likely an R-12 Freon valve meaning the R-134A hose connection won't work.
In addition, if your deck doesn't have a tap valve installed, you will have to have one installed by means of either a clamp on or a valve that is installed by "sweating" using a propane torch and solder.
One last thing, you might hear from a whole bunch of different people that there is a direct "drop-in replacement" for R-12 Freon. I can tell you that that is a totally false statement. There are however a few satisfactory replacements.
The best one that I know of at this time is R-414B "Hotshot". I know this because 3 of my local AC/HVAC stores/entities exclusively use this now to re-charge older refrigeration/HVAC systems and have had ZERO problems on systems up to 50 years old! At first R-414B was met with a ton of grief. Nobody wanted to touch it. They'd heard all of the bad things about the other so-called "Drop-in replacements" and had most likely been burnt before. After a few of my buddies started using it and were met with great success more and more folks started using it and now they all seem to be very pleased with it's performance. These are all local folks to me that I've known for a few years and trust pretty well.
Your best bet overall is to have somebody that knows how to repair/re-charge your deck. I do my own because I have poor waiting habits and like to do things on my own schedule instead of waiting for weeks on end.
If you scroll up to the top of this page you will see an add from Global Compressors, Eric is the best around. He won't steer you wrong and turns an excellent product. He is also very open to discussing problems over the phone and helping you through situations.
Another problem with this is that the can utilizes R-134A connectors vice R-12 connectors. So, if your refrigeration deck in you soda pop machine already has a tap valve or Schraeder Valve installed it is more than likely an R-12 Freon valve meaning the R-134A hose connection won't work.
In addition, if your deck doesn't have a tap valve installed, you will have to have one installed by means of either a clamp on or a valve that is installed by "sweating" using a propane torch and solder.
One last thing, you might hear from a whole bunch of different people that there is a direct "drop-in replacement" for R-12 Freon. I can tell you that that is a totally false statement. There are however a few satisfactory replacements.
The best one that I know of at this time is R-414B "Hotshot". I know this because 3 of my local AC/HVAC stores/entities exclusively use this now to re-charge older refrigeration/HVAC systems and have had ZERO problems on systems up to 50 years old! At first R-414B was met with a ton of grief. Nobody wanted to touch it. They'd heard all of the bad things about the other so-called "Drop-in replacements" and had most likely been burnt before. After a few of my buddies started using it and were met with great success more and more folks started using it and now they all seem to be very pleased with it's performance. These are all local folks to me that I've known for a few years and trust pretty well.
Your best bet overall is to have somebody that knows how to repair/re-charge your deck. I do my own because I have poor waiting habits and like to do things on my own schedule instead of waiting for weeks on end.
If you scroll up to the top of this page you will see an add from Global Compressors, Eric is the best around. He won't steer you wrong and turns an excellent product. He is also very open to discussing problems over the phone and helping you through situations.
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: vend_dr on June 13, 2005, 07:19:46 pm
| Quote (VMC117BMB @ June 13 2005,6:52) |
| There are however a few satisfactory replacements. The best one that I know of at this time is R-414B "Hotshot". |
I have been using R416A as a replacement for R 12 on all of my vending machines at work with very good luck. Including 30+ year old milk machines. I personally would never use "hotshot" due to it's bad reputation when it first came to the market in fact most refridgeration supply companies here said to stay away from it. Maybe they fixed the problem with it (if there was one to begin with).
As with everything you use what you get comfortable working with and for me it's R416A
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: johnieG on June 13, 2005, 10:15:22 pm
Also note that "drop-in" replacements like "R-12A" and "Freeze12 are blended refrigerants that contains butane (a hydrocarbon) this alows it to "carry" the original mineral oil in your machines system for lubrication of the compressor.
R134A does not,(mix with mineral oil) & the system must be flushed and retrofitted with a proper compatable oil (personally I use "Hotshot" R414B in my R12 conversions) my next door HVAC neighbor uses R416A for all of his R12 service calls, just a matter of personel preferences, but he works on mostly large commercial walk-in coolers,
the only advantage of these R12 "drop-in" replacements are that you (the general puplic) can purchase them without a licence (certification) basically, in a nutshell, the only thing I can tell you in regards to "Hot-Shot" R414B or R416A (or any replacement) is that you don't want to over charge the system & like all "blends" you must have a solid (sealed & properly pressure tested ) system, because due to the different "boiling points" of the combined components , any leak will cause them to separate & drastically change the performance of the "blended" replacment in other words..you best be aware of what you are attempting to do, don't want you damage your system, or yourself!
if you like to amuse and or confuse yourself do a "google" search on R12, "Hot Shot" , Freeze-12, R12A, etc... & see how many "replacements" are out there. they all are trying to sell you the moon, & the "other guys" stuff is junk... that leads me to another sore point, is R134A priced nuts lately? I bought a 2-30# jugs at SAMS last winter for $68.00, now it's $237.00! way crazy! Dow Chemical has to pay off on all those silcone Implant lawsuits I guess!
so spend a little time educating yourself & it'll help you make an informed decision..you could give Eric at Global compressors a call too!
R134A does not,(mix with mineral oil) & the system must be flushed and retrofitted with a proper compatable oil (personally I use "Hotshot" R414B in my R12 conversions) my next door HVAC neighbor uses R416A for all of his R12 service calls, just a matter of personel preferences, but he works on mostly large commercial walk-in coolers,
the only advantage of these R12 "drop-in" replacements are that you (the general puplic) can purchase them without a licence (certification) basically, in a nutshell, the only thing I can tell you in regards to "Hot-Shot" R414B or R416A (or any replacement) is that you don't want to over charge the system & like all "blends" you must have a solid (sealed & properly pressure tested ) system, because due to the different "boiling points" of the combined components , any leak will cause them to separate & drastically change the performance of the "blended" replacment in other words..you best be aware of what you are attempting to do, don't want you damage your system, or yourself!
if you like to amuse and or confuse yourself do a "google" search on R12, "Hot Shot" , Freeze-12, R12A, etc... & see how many "replacements" are out there. they all are trying to sell you the moon, & the "other guys" stuff is junk... that leads me to another sore point, is R134A priced nuts lately? I bought a 2-30# jugs at SAMS last winter for $68.00, now it's $237.00! way crazy! Dow Chemical has to pay off on all those silcone Implant lawsuits I guess!
so spend a little time educating yourself & it'll help you make an informed decision..you could give Eric at Global compressors a call too!
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: BrianB on June 14, 2005, 12:49:00 pm
That's a VERY good point, Vend Dr.
Personal preference DEFINITELY comes into play. Sorry if my post came across to blunt!
Personal preference DEFINITELY comes into play. Sorry if my post came across to blunt!
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: globalcompressors on June 14, 2005, 06:38:47 pm
Hi guys,
A quick note. What do you think about the increase in price? Too much, wow! Back to the R134a. You have been misinformed about the oil in the compressors, mineral, alka-benzine, Zerol, etc. All of that hype, (I'd like to use another word but can't), was brought on by the manufacturing companies. Buy their freon, use their oil, plain and simple. If you are looking for a box temperature of minus
-20F or colder, you will tend to have a flocking problem with the oil moving around the system, kind of like bacon greese when it cools. The rest simply isn't true. Though 134a runs at a higher temperature and preassure, todays modern compressors will handle it just fine. If you are using an original compressor, that was designed for R12, you do need to use a replacement and not the 134a. Not because of the oil or the quality of cold temperature, but because of the windings in the compressor motor itself. Older R12 compressors are designed to run cooler and at lower pressures with less back pressures for sub-cooling of the motor. Because of needing to save money, todays compressor manufacturing companies build the compressors all the same way, simply changing the tag around to call it an r12 or a 134a compressor and charge more money. Now, if we are using an expansion valve and not a cap tube for metering, or using say 404a or r22, we do need an additional boost from a high torque starting compressor with a start capacitor designed for its specific duty.
Now, for the disclaimer, all of this info, is based on my personal experience. Global Compressors builds more than 500 units a year, modern and antique. To my knowledge, I am the largest, independent, builder in the country.
Get ready for more good news, freon prices are going to keep going up. The reason for the current increase, Dupont shut it's Mexico plant down, largest in the Americas. I understand that they are currently talking to the automotive industry, wanting to develop another freon, for the a/c units in new cars. The refrigerants will probably stay where they are, price wise, from here on out. Im not sure about the refrigeration industry. I hope they will stay with the 134a. We'll see!
Smile!!!
Eric
A quick note. What do you think about the increase in price? Too much, wow! Back to the R134a. You have been misinformed about the oil in the compressors, mineral, alka-benzine, Zerol, etc. All of that hype, (I'd like to use another word but can't), was brought on by the manufacturing companies. Buy their freon, use their oil, plain and simple. If you are looking for a box temperature of minus
-20F or colder, you will tend to have a flocking problem with the oil moving around the system, kind of like bacon greese when it cools. The rest simply isn't true. Though 134a runs at a higher temperature and preassure, todays modern compressors will handle it just fine. If you are using an original compressor, that was designed for R12, you do need to use a replacement and not the 134a. Not because of the oil or the quality of cold temperature, but because of the windings in the compressor motor itself. Older R12 compressors are designed to run cooler and at lower pressures with less back pressures for sub-cooling of the motor. Because of needing to save money, todays compressor manufacturing companies build the compressors all the same way, simply changing the tag around to call it an r12 or a 134a compressor and charge more money. Now, if we are using an expansion valve and not a cap tube for metering, or using say 404a or r22, we do need an additional boost from a high torque starting compressor with a start capacitor designed for its specific duty.
Now, for the disclaimer, all of this info, is based on my personal experience. Global Compressors builds more than 500 units a year, modern and antique. To my knowledge, I am the largest, independent, builder in the country.
Get ready for more good news, freon prices are going to keep going up. The reason for the current increase, Dupont shut it's Mexico plant down, largest in the Americas. I understand that they are currently talking to the automotive industry, wanting to develop another freon, for the a/c units in new cars. The refrigerants will probably stay where they are, price wise, from here on out. Im not sure about the refrigeration industry. I hope they will stay with the 134a. We'll see!
Smile!!!
Eric
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: Creighton on June 15, 2005, 12:06:34 am
Eric,
Thanks for the info that was great!
Creighton
Thanks for the info that was great!
Creighton
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: BrianB on June 15, 2005, 07:41:46 am
Yeah, thanks for the info Eric!
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: BrianB on June 15, 2005, 07:42:38 am
Gotta love the price jump...... 
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: on June 15, 2005, 12:17:44 pm
Thank you all for the information, Everything was very helpful!!!
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: globalcompressors on June 15, 2005, 04:47:09 pm
Guys,
Please keep in mind that with any repair/replacement of a compressor or coil repair, you must do a good job. Repair, flush, replace drier, vacuum, and charge. There is a protocol that must be followed and of course, a bit of experience does help. Remember, there are a lot of good R12 replacements available. We simply use
R134a because thats the industry standard, coolers, freezers, refrigerators, soda machines, cars, etc. Use a replacement if you are keeping an orginal R12 compressor. Changing the compressor, R134a will work fine!
Just food for thought:)
Eric
Please keep in mind that with any repair/replacement of a compressor or coil repair, you must do a good job. Repair, flush, replace drier, vacuum, and charge. There is a protocol that must be followed and of course, a bit of experience does help. Remember, there are a lot of good R12 replacements available. We simply use
R134a because thats the industry standard, coolers, freezers, refrigerators, soda machines, cars, etc. Use a replacement if you are keeping an orginal R12 compressor. Changing the compressor, R134a will work fine!
Just food for thought:)
Eric
Title: Will this r-12 freon work?
Post by: txturbo on July 18, 2005, 12:34:03 pm
Anyone know what Raycon500 refrigerant is used for? I have a cylinder of it in my garage someplace.