SMC Discussion Areas

Anyone know if Jeff Walters is still around?  If so, any knowledge if he has interest in making a 4th edition?

I heard he is long out of the biz.

i heard the same thing.shame i would love to see a fourth edition.prices seem all over the place

You guys don't have the new 4th edition?? I just got it in the mail yesterday. :tounge: Kidding of course. I think I've seen this discussion many times and I agree with you guys it would be nice to have a updated price guide. Now I do think having Jeff Walters input in the new guide would be great but I don't think it's necessary he writes it. Now hear me out. Apparently from all I've read and heard he is no longer involved with collecting and fell of the face of the earth. So how would he be able to put together a accurate value book without the input of others more familiar with today's market? And If that's the case then why have him write it?? He wrote his part of collecting history and we all appreciate it and have referenced and learned lots from his book but I think his silence is telling us it's someone else's turn.  Now I'm not knocking him, he knows more about machines then I probably ever will but I believe it needs to be someone at the top of there game in the industry today that writes the new book. Not sure who that should be but I could name several people on here with lots of knowledge and experience. So Jeff Walters who do you nominate?......  :help:

PS. Now I know some members personally know him so if you could get us the final answer to the question "will there be a 4th edition?" question that would be great. Please and Thanks  :biggrin:
Or maybe he could reply himself??

It would actually be quite simple really. I reference that book still a few times a year, not for the pricing, more for the rarity guide and the dimensions and the brief history of each model. All that will never change. The only thing that needs to be updated is just the pricing. I think we all have a pretty good idea what the new pricing should be, give or take a few bucks here and there.

I think the rarity scale needs to be updated now that new machines have surfaced since the 3rd edition was published. Just one example. He lists a Mills 65 as more rare then a Mills 45?? I also think that new machine discoveries or info could be added to the book as well. I hear what your saying about just doing a revised price guide and it would be helpful but I'd love to see a new book or download. One with better resolution pics as well. I can dream can't I? Lol

I  just spoke to a gentleman this weekend who said Jeff has a store-front in Independence, MO. Said that Jeff offered to help him restore his machine.

B.

http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Soda-Machines-Rick-Dale/dp/0615955517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413211581&sr=1-1&keywords=classic+soda+machines

The new edition!

Jeff must have made him a deal.. anyone have one?... sounds/looks like 3rd addition with a new cover...

I'm very interested in seeing his values. Are they going to be real world prices or based on what he charges?? I would guess his restored values will be high otherwise he may upset his previous customers. We shall see...

Who else but Rick Dale would rate himself more important than the content of the book? Personally, I think the book is over-priced.

He did a great job authoring and not sounding like a sexist idiot: "Average Condition: This is a machine that will need painting before your wife will let it in the house"

     Right, front cover shows the 'King of Pop' machines and the back features Westinghouse 42's.  :upside: great choices.

     Who proof reads the book before it goes to publishing? Try and find a Vendo 81B or D in the index:

      http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Soda-Machines-Rick-Dale/dp/0615955517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413211581&sr=1-1&keywords=classic+soda+machines  (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Soda-Machines-Rick-Dale/dp/0615955517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413211581&sr=1-1&keywords=classic+soda+machines)

     You need to click the "Look inside" link above his head.

Wow... it states “contents of this publication is unchanged from 1999....” wonder if they even updated prices?...

I'm sorry but I would not trust anyone who just yesterday on a rerun of his show, auctioned off a restored "Vendo 72" :jawdrop:

$53.95 for the book, and has a restored Westinghouse  WE 6  priced at $21,450. I hope half the 53.95 goes to fact checking or a proofread editor

It looks like a cheap Chinese rerun of the book?  under the Vendo section, the go from Vendo 81a, and then the next one is Vendo s1d... I'm guess the S is suppose to be an 8?

Duh?

would love too to see the values... but not paying 53.00 for a look

$53!!!!  wow.... Was a sore issue back years ago now... but a guy, can't remember his full name (Dan.... ?), was going to make a really nice guide, had it
all set and looked ready to go... look like twice the machines and info.... but ended up being too expensive to print so he took the cash he had
collected at the time and went into hiding... Real shame would have loved to have had it... I remember him talking about photos of models of coolers
I've yet to see in any other book... Wonder if he just trashed it all...

I can just imagine what his prices are on a Vendo 39:

Vendo 39 Original condition, $ 600

Vendo 39 restored condition:  See Cavalier 72 page 320

 :laugh:

             LOL  :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

             Love the RestoRick jokes!

Well I guess your right Eric. This sums it up.

Don't forget American Restorations

The other guy who was supposed to do a book was Dan Quate.

I wouldn't touch anything that has to do with Rick. (except his money when he did buy a machine from me but it was through Paypal so technically I didn't touch it.)

He's a hack. I have seen enough if his machines to know.

His book is fitting though. He writes books the same was he restores machine, half ass with no thought or effort then charges a arm and a leg because his name is attached to it. Please.....

I still think we need an "online" price guide. They ain't printing price guides anymore, I think. Petretti's last was 2008 and BJ Summers publisher isn't publishing books anymore. Anyway we can make a SMC guide that everyone can contribute? Just an idea.

       SMC online price guide does exist thanks to a very generous member.

        http://soda-machines.com/discussions/index.php/topic,15417.msg119974.html#msg119974  (http://soda-machines.com/discussions/index.php/topic,15417.msg119974.html#msg119974)

       Rarer machines could even be added with actual values determined through an SMC survey, rather than Walters best guesswork.
       

I think we could do this as a group. Have one person in charge that's knowledgeable like Kaleid or another member do a weekly poll on 10 machines. That would be the first option. The second option is if Kaleid or other member are not interested I am willing to list the machines and compile and adjusting price ranges. I just don't have enough knowledge of putting a starting value on all the machines. Once the member in charge posts the weekly 10 machines everyone can then copy and add their own values and re post. Then once several members have posted their values we open up discusion to adjust values. Then the numbers are looked over and averaged then finalized. After several weeks we will have covered most of the machines. Once the weeks have passed the finalized values will get put all together as a price guide in a separate post.
I think this will give a representation of all regions of value and personal opinion. We all want this and talk about it all the time so lets finally do it. Anyone on board??  :hopefull:

When someone does a poll and and members vote and at then end of the poll the average is shown ... could a price guide be set that way?
seems prices are all over the place.. some pay top, top dollar for a machine or cooler while someone may get a steal on a machine or cooler.
Some don't mind telling what they have in their collection or what they paid while other are more private about telling what they have and spent...
just thinking if there was one of those polls set up members could post what they paid for what machine and could be kept private.
Can those polls be set up to last a full year and at end of your year that would be the price guide?
Anyway just my 2 cents.

I agree with you, but a "steal" is only a steal because it is so much below value. A price guide needs to be realistic prices on a retail level. Restored and Originals at retail... And like cars that #5 parts/needs restoration car category.

The easiest place to get prices is to go to the restorers and ask how much to provide the machine and deliver it restored. That is the ACTUAL value of a restored piece. There should be a disclaimer on most machines that the resale price is typically much less then cost of restoration especially when not fresh off restoration.

For original machines, there are 2 different values. 1) Needs to be restored. 2) nice original working and complete. Restorers should NOT be asked for values of original pieces as they do not have the perspective needed for original machines.  With some exception, they want the cheapest machines to restore and its like selling your jewelry to a gold scrapper. To them, it truly has no more value as a mint original as a decent original because they are going to blast it with sand and start over anyhow. I was told by several that my rare original machine had little value, then I sold one to a collector for almost 10 times the value they said. (then it was sold again for 25 % more!) Collectors and retail sellers set the real value of originals. 

A Poll for values? That is a bad idea to get value. First, this place is was too small for a statistically relevant sample to get a price who has bought and sold every machine in the last 12 months. You will get a lot of guesses from those who have never even seen one and do not have a way of retail sales. It is also a group of passionate collectors that are willing to wait for the steals and deals. They pass on machines that sell every day because they know they can wait 18 months and save $400 but that machine still sold for the price they wouldn't pay. So is the value the real amount it sold for or the price you wouldn't pay? I bet the votes are what you wanted to pay, not what it sold for and you wouldn't pay to get the flip.

The SMC price guide started in 2012 is a good start, but it is already missing one important category.... the nice mint original. He has
Low end - not working/missing parts and
High end - working, solid, all parts there, possible candidate for restoration.
The nice mint originals to a collector has collector value not gameroom value like a restored machine, once its restored it looses most of its collectors value and market.

All that being said, a guide is just a guide and they are obsolete and off as soon as they are printed. Pick any one, Petretti's, guns, signs, baseball cards, knives, marbles, coins, military...... the prices always seem high to the average person, are geared to the retail priced collector and people expect to pay short of that. You can't put out a guide with prices below wholesale for people that can't afford or wont spend the money on the top half of the market.

      Oh gosh, let's keep this simple folks.  :blush:

      Even if someone were to buy an 81 for $500.00, it's current value will still average out to $2K to $3K.

      The more important data to be saved is concerning the rare machines, lets use the Lyon 500 as example.

      The current price guide shows a very nice picture of this machine but no trading price available, just "Rare"
     
      I doubted this 500 even existed until just a few years ago, then two of them surfaced and sold on E-bay.................

The prices will average out. For example I bought a cav 96 for 200.00 and sold it for 1000.00. Now lets say another person bought one for 800.00 and sold it for 1500.00. The median price range of the two would be 350.00-1250.00. Now this is not a accurate range because its only two people but once you average several peoples prices you will have a accurate median range. The more people we average in the gap between 350-1250 will begin to get closer to accurate range. I do agree with Tim in the sense we may have more wholesale buyers on this forum so it may represent the values on the lower side. Now with that said if the price range ended up falling in the 800-1300 range for a cav 96 that doesn't mean that nobody has ever purchased one at 200.00 or never sold one at 2000.00 it just means the average price is 800-1300. If we use our own personal sales data and knowledge of what these are selling for we should come up with a accurate price guide.  Glenn I do think the more rare machines like the Lyon 500 will need more discusion to establish a price. I think we have everyone find as much sales data as they can on the particular rare item and post it. Then we discuss and average them out and come up with a realistic value. This may not be the best way of doing this but it's going to be much better then a guide from 1999. My wife always says to me "keep it stupid simple" or did she say "keep it simple stupid". Hmmm

Here's my two cents. I have thought long and hard about writting a book, but just don't have the time. I have been around a lot of machines and feel I could give a realistic price on machines. You can't price a Cav 72 at $300 just because someone bought one on craigslist at this price once. You need to feel the whole market. What would a nice original 72 be worth, or one that needs restored, or one that has been restored, but then who restored it. I have seen restored machines that I wouldn't give two cents for. That's why when Jeff Walters wrote his book his values were realistic because he was the man to write the book because he was exposed to a lot of machines. To write a book and give accurate AVERAGE prices needs to be done by an expert and someone who has been exposed to a lot of machines. (Not saying this is just me, because there are several other guys out there I know that are very up on there machines). So my two cents is: A book or price guide needs to be done by an expert who has been around a lot of machines.

      In this case, that should have been Rick!

 :help:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Without anyone willing to quote restored prices, how can anyone come up with these prices?
Ok you're a restorer and you had a nice restored junior at the show for a fair price. What are your selling prices for these more common restored machines when you've sold them:

Vendo 81B:
Vendo 81D:
VMC 81 Pepsi:
VMC 81 Generic:
VMC 110 Pepsi:
Cav 72:
Cav 96:
Jacobs 56:
Coke Embossed Slider:
Orange Crush Slider:
Hires Embossed Slider:
Other or Generic Slider:

We know it costs a bundle to restore these, but what do they actually sell for when your done to customers expecting to pay the going rate? Or better yet, if you were being paid to value these for an insurance claim what would your number be for these restored machines? And then if you had to replace these for a customer in within 4 weeks to start a restoration, what would you put on these restored machines? That is the real value, if you have to find one in a reasonable amount of time, what will it cost. Not, if you wait long enough it will come up on craigslist prices. Reasonable to me is around 4 weeks to find and buy for desirable machines.

Similar thing goes for unrestored machines. Restoration costs on the side, how much would it cost to get one in a reasonable amount of time and pay for what is out there.  Unrestored machines I can line up Vendo 110's, Generic sliders, Cav 72's and 96's across the country just off a couple of craigslist searches in a week. How much would you have to pay to get a VMC pepsi 81 in 4 weeks or even worse a 81 7up?

The really rare stuff is more what people are willing to pay not what it costs to pry it out of a collectors hand. Its hard to judge, because its a real collector with real money that is going to pay a premium for those items.

I think too many value machines at what they can get them for when they pop up in their area on craigslist and they are not actually looking to buy one. BEAYOUNG just sought out and apparently got an 81 7up... that is the value of a machine when you are actively looking for it and not passively buying what comes along like a lot of us.

Here are some realistic selling prices for some restored machines if restored properly. I have restored all of these machines and this is what I actually sold them for. I know some restores do get more for there machines and some restorers get less. Sometimes you can get more if your selling a rare machine, or selling to a big collector who just really wants something. These prices are based on taking a fully restored machine to a show and selling it to a end user who is going to use the machine.

81B ......$6,500
81D.......$7,000
Pepsi VMC 81 .....$9,000
RC VMC 81 ......$13,500
VMC Generic .....Depends on what it is done in?
Pepsi VMC 110 .....$8,500
RC VMC 110 .....$10,000
Coke 110 ......$7,000
Cav 72......$5,800
Cav 96......$5,800
Jacobs 56 ....$6,000
Coke embossed slider......$5,200
Orange Crush Slider.......$4,800
Hires  and other brands  $4,200
Pepsi slider .......$3,800
Coke Junior Cooler $1,800
Coke Standard Cooler ....$2,800

        A restored Coke 110 could bring as much as a restored 81? 

        Wow, we really need a new price guide.  :hopefull:

       

Anyone whoever has restored a 110 knows there is a whole lot more work in restoring it and the painter and the blaster will charge you more also. That is why I sell them for the same as an 81. If someone where to call me and ask what I would charge to restore a 110 I can tell you it will be a whole lot more than an 81.

I understand cost of restoration can be very high but the machine being restored is still the machine being restored.

I say that because of the same pricing with the Cav 72 and 96. I'm sure restoration cost is the same, 96 might even be a little more but the 72 is a more collectible machine.

If one chooses to restore a Vendo 83 and the restoration cost is say $3,000, I would still say it's not even a $500 machine.

Whatever is listed is still better than paying $50 for a price gussied up to appear new but is 20 yrs old
. To me that's misleading. Not fraud since you have to dig to find out it is old material but it is there

You could pay $100 for the originals on ebay!  :tounge:

I've talked to a couple of people who love their 83... a fully restored 83 would would pull more than $500 to the right buyer. The right buyer wouldn't be an SMC member that hates them. Obviously, a restorer is not going to speculate in that market to resell one with the limited appeal but will restore one if the cash is dropped on the desk.

Not true Tim. If I was still restoring machines, I wouldn't restore a 83 for any price. To me it would be bad business. I would talk them into putting that money into a collectible machine. I just couldn't charge them for a restoration for a machine not worth restoring. But that's just me. I don't hate 83's, to me they just have no collector value. But, I do see your point.

This is where you have to be careful in writing a price guide. Just because a few people might think that the 83 is worthless there are people out there who do restore and like them. Trust me I sell parts so I know what people are doing. So to be fair in the price guide you have to put a realistic value on the machine. Not just how you feel about a machine. Trust me I feel that the Jacobs 26 is one of the most worthless machines out there, but I know there are people out there who really like them and restore them. So if I were to write a guide does that mean I would put a low value on it just because I felt it was a dog. No. I would have to be realistic and put a price on it according to the market. The market being what I have seen this machine sell for at auctions to private collectors on e-bay and craigslist and at shows. That wouldn't be what someone was asking, but actual selling prices. You have to watch all these to come up with a fair market value.

      Excellent point......... I say we ask Rod to pin new numbers into the old price guide!  :happydrinkers:

I say we ask Moondawg to start a column for original machines.  :hopefull:

I know you refurbish the good ones and keep them original and I thought you did a lot of that for your shop. Rustmort, polish, cleaned and maybe rewired for the end user sale of a cooling working machine....  You have a good pulse of what the retail asking prices are for the originals and won't undervalue them. The book price for an original is for a crappy paint, wife will kick you out for bringing it in the house, might be missing parts but can be found, and if I recall, may or may not cool!

R-12 isn't $9.99 at napa anymore, we all know cooling is a $3-600 swing in price right there because it scares lots of people off. (especially from a retail perspective because its a project not retail value) 

I wish I knew how to due anything like making a Book/list with Pictures &Value on a computer  :tounge:But I barely get to SMC .
The sit has the resources on machines Like My Delf  :tounge: 
Just need someone that's a Computer Wis and has spare time . Opps No one has spare time .

I would be happy to contribute $$ to assist someone . But We need a BOOK !!!!  :Oo:

Would you include square tops? Are any of them gaining value? What would be the cut-off, date-wise?

Still pretty Rodney Dangerfield.. No respect.

In my opinion it wouldn't be worth with the exception of a couple. Some are collectible but a lot more are garage or game room machines. 

A needed tool, but needs input and a toolmaker. I hacked this together looks like +/-2 yrs. ago.

Data entry form is here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1rxZ-s0-mFDNsrsnPpgOk6HWNVyjexu20dHTsYR3u9JM/viewform?embedded=true&formkey=dEhPWjZOcm5MaFowbHUydHA4ckZWekE6MA

View submissions here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AjCiDCpAbO7GdEhPWjZOcm5MaFowbHUydHA4ckZWekE&output=html

Pretty easy to spot there was no interest. Or the interface sucked ??? My workload is extreme at this point. Anyone up for the project I can help on a limited basis.
Creighton