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i saw this on ebay after it was ended early, seller stated he sold them in a message i sent him.  any one buying an rc 81 in the near future be very very careful. i have already personnaly seen someone convert a coke 81d into a vmc rc 81. he bought a similar sign to this and welded it in on the top, then used a pepsi vmc 33 as a donor for the lower vmc depression were the vmc decal goes.  when completed you could not tell it from an original.  unfortunately he defrauded some unsuspecting person.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-Embossed-Royal-Crown-Cola-RC-Soda-Machine-Chest-Metal-Panel-Ad-Signs-/260914262466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbfb3b1c2#ht_500wt_1361

Now who would do something that dishonest?? :oops: :Oo:

       Those letters are 20" wide, too large for an 81 but they look cool.

He states the panel is 20" - I bet the lettering is only 13" or so across...

With the amount of coin you would have to spend to get an RC 81--assuming it is legit--you would be a fool to not insist on a picture of the back side of the main door with the liner and insulation pulled back.  If you pay the money without requiring proof that the machine is legit, I say shame on the seller but even bigger shame on the buyer!

And as we all know by now, if it seems too good to be true, IT IS!

 :drinking: Tim :drinking:

The "Son's of Gun's" boys had a portable ultrasound device that found a bad weld.

Suspect it would work just fine on RC doors. Even if some clown won't allow pulling the liner.

Creighton

A picture is no REAL proof in my mind. How do I know it is of THIS machine! A digital file can be copied, renamed, etc. I'll buy anything unrestored before I'd buy restored. I guess if I just HAD to have it, but I don't feel that strongly about many things including an RC81!

Good point Tom!  I guess I really should have said personally inspect the machine before forking over the dough!

 :drinking: Tim :drinking:

I have no worries since i can't afford an RC 81, but if my real parents, the Rockefellers ever find me , I'd be darn sure to inspect, review documentation and inspect some more.

The only real way to tell is too remove the door liner and inspect it from the inside.  There is too much money at stake to do otherwise.

Brian

Larry you know who it was scammin Dan with the cheatin' wife.  She has been around the block so many times they named the street after her!  lmao

This is what I did before forking over the cash.
We made a deal before hand to allow me to pull off the liner.

Smart move.  That is exactly what I would have done.

BC

Metal work and body work can be done to levels of perfection. Its just how much you want to put into it. If you can weld that panel in the front and make it smooth as glass, Why couldnt you make it smooth as glass on the inside???? If I was buying a restored RC 81 and it was painted yellow on the inside like the one pictured. I would be doing alot more than pulling the liner off to look for weld marks. It doesnt matter if you spend $5k or 12K on a RC 81 if its restored BUYER BEWARE!!!

Joey

I see your point.. but the inside yellow is overspray from the painting process.
When something is welded, such as a RC panel on an 81, you can grind one side of the machine (the front) to a glass finish, then with layers of paint, bondo etc you would never know the difference.

YET you can't grind off BOTH sides of a welding seam and still keep the structure in place.  The thickness of the metal on an 81 just can't support both sides being grinded off flat.  If you did, there WILL be evidence of the weld.  As well, in doing so, because there is not much "juice" of the metal to weld with, you would essentially be taking off the weld that you just put on.

My family has been in the business of welding (metal fabricators) for just over 50 years, and Im involved in the family business as well.  I would LOVE to see someone weld a panel onto a guage of metal like the 81, without looking I'd say its 1/8th  and grind down BOTH sides of the sheet.  Trust me, you will see the weld, and/or the grinding marks left.

We are talking about a soda machine here guys, not the space shuttle.  And with restoring these machines, generally guys are using MIG/TIG or simply straight stick welding.

Just my opinion  :happydrinkers:

bonovox, I think you did the right thing, and the machine appears to be genuine. I would agree that someone unscrupulous enough to weld in a panel would mig or tig in the piece, and concentrate only on the appearance of the outside surface. Any potential buyer requesting interior examination of the machine would somehow quickly find the sale evaporating...

As for the ability to have a patch installed without detection, that is another matter. The Reynolds Museum in Wetaskawin Alberta offers a course called museum quality bodywork (I've taken it) that specializes in teaching fusion welding. This is a bit of a lost art that is employed on very rare automobiles where repair patches are installed that connot be detected.

Using a 00 torch, 3 lbs of acetelyne with no oxygen, the flame is "tickled" across the existing panel and the patch mating surface "just" to the point of fusion. Needless to say, considerable time is spent matching the two pieces to a near force fit. This fusion tack is mad e at one end, then the other of the patch, and alternating one inch apart, back and forth, until the two pieces are completely fused.

Hammer and dolly is used throughout the process to avoid warping and metal hardening. Wire may be used as fill in spots. Once the weld is complete, more hammer and dolly work, mixed with vixen filing is employed, until you are left with a filler-less, undetectable patch. I watched the instructor do this on a Cord fender, it was impressive. I've been welding and restoring cars for 35 years, and have used this technique with some success (just to try it after the course), but it takes forever.

Needless to say, this type of work is expected on a Deusenburg fender or a Ford Model N hood, not on a pop machine. If you are permitted access to the baskside of a panel in the first place, and it looks like the above, I would suggest it's the real deal

Chris

Hey Chris

I've heard of this technique (although it's fusion, not really welding in the "welding" terms  :smile:)
Although I've never seen it in person, would the intense steady heat from the torch not cause the metal in a cars body, or a flat surface of say a soda machine  :glare: cause it to warp?
I say this because if anyone has ever welded here, welding say for example a "T" section, placing the weld at the 90 degree points, the heat from the welds would cause the top of the "T" to warp upwards.  Or welding 1/8th metal or even 3/16th together, the heat from a MIG machine can easily cause a "ripple" of the metal around where the weld takes place (when welding in a slow manner passing the weld over a few times to fill in all holes)
I say this becasuse would you not agree that welding a patch of that size (the RC Cola Logo etc) onto an 81, either by a weld, OR fusion as you brought up, would not cause a "warp" in the metal? A warp that would need hammering and body filler to smooth out and would be noticable from the inside of the machine? (Where in the case of my machine, the natural texture of metal is felt throughout the backside around the lettering, where if bond were applied, it would be smooth.

Either way, I know my machine is the real deal, so I have no concerns there.

P.S.  I've personally peeled back a machines liner, only to see the welding stitches as clear as day.  The owner of that machine was FLOORED that he had a fake 81_______ because it was sold to him as the real deal, and it NEVER occured to him when he bought it that fakes were made.  From the outside, that machine looked AWESOME, yet I had my doubts even before I peeled the liner back, and they came true once I saw what I saw.

 :happydrinkers:

 :happydrinkers:

Im not trying to start a fight or a arguement like on a earlier post we all read.

I have a picture in my hands of a 81 that has the liner taken off. Its a oddball brand, There is no weld marks, and no "overspray" like in the RC pictured above and there is NO evidence of any welding or grinding. I was asked by the person who gave me this picture not to post it online and im going to respect that.

I have shown the picture to a good friend and a active member on this site his response was damn!!! If he wants to chime in he is more than welcome. If anyone wants to see the pic remind me at a upcoming show that I attend and I will gladly bring it!

It doesnt matter its just a "Soda Machine" money is money and where there is money to be made honestly or shady a good fabricater can make anything and also hide anything they do not want seen.

Im active in the Gas and Oil Hobby as well there is more signs being passed off as originals every day and these are good quality double sided porcelain signs that you would have never thought could be reproduced with such quality. They are reproducing clockface pumps now that are ALL Steel with no fiberglass

$10,000 Plus for a RC 81 is alot of money a good con man can easily hide the work for a good hefty profit, Whether its $500 or $5,000 on a item be careful out there!!!

Joey

bonovox,

that's the point of the technique, to eliminate warpage caused by heat usually associated with GMAW or MIG welding. by working a series of small tacks (not MIG tacks in the traditional sense, but areas where the metal has been heated just to the point of fusion) on opposite ends of the patch, slowly, allowing for heat dissapation, and using hammer and dolly to keep mating surfaces straight, the process will accomplish the desired result.

All that said, I think yours is genuine.

Joey,

I would agree that out there are people that will do anything to pass off an item as something that it is not, I`ve seen lots in the old car hobby. My point is that this type of work is only done by a very skilled fabricator, chances are more likely you`ll find a typical body shop style repair hidden by a liner than a perfect patch undetectable on either side. I said more likely, not impossible. I too have no interest in an arguement, as I think we`re all saying the same thing, but I think we`d all like to see the picture.

Chris

Thanks Chris

Yes Joey, thanks for you insight as well.  Im not saying that it's impossible... rather highly unlikely is all.  And each machine is different from the rest.  I can only speak for my machine, and the one I saw with the weld marks.
As well, I can speak about the welding process, and that's what I do for a living.
Is what you say possible? Sure... but not likely.

With my machine, I bought if from a collector from here.  It was one of many he had.  He didnt restore the machine, but rather bought it years ago from a collector himself.
He had never pulled the liner off himself, as he knew the collector he purchased it from, and thus knew the machine to be legit.  When I asked him to look at the back, he said no problem, and even helped me with it.

I know what I paid for it, and I know what he paid for the machine, and to do all the work of "special welding" etc. on this machine, well, there just isnt enough $$ to justify from the first point of sale to do it.
One would have been better off to keep it as a Pepsi or Generic than to have done all that work. (not sure if what I wrote makes sense lol)

Also, I found on this site a while back, the exact dimensions of the RC cola logo and lettering and with the registered "R" on the machine.  Mine match.
Wondering if someone could chime in with where could someone can obtain the RC logo WITH the "R"?  Were there coolers with the same size lettering?

Joey, as well, I would love to see the pics you have.  I dont understand the big secret of not showing them, when you admit that its an off brand, so right there we know it to be a fake machine.

AND with all of this above, I am by no means mad at anyones replies..... we are all her for the love of these machines, and talking about it in any manner is fun!
It takes a  lot to get me mad..... Life is too short to get mad over soda machines lol

 :happydrinkers:

bonovox i make no specific reference to your machine, i am sure you can distinguish between original over spray and complete paint.  when i  bought my 81 7 up. i could tell just by looking at it that it was original, due to the price i was paying i still removed the liner to see the interior of the door.  it too also only had original over spray. the chisler i saw make a bogus rc 81 had an original rc 81.  it needed restoration to beat up to keep original.  he photographed the original prior to resto and documented restowith pics.  he then created the frankenstein rc 81.  hyped machine as complete resto in and out.  the original rc 81 had been in the owners family since new.  so when they got there machine back they had no doubt it was their original machine except for the fact that it was the fake and this scumbag kept the original. the whole point i'm trying to make is if this person now goes to sell, they will honestly think it was their original machine. 

thats why i copied the ebay listing the rc embossed signs were sold.  somebody bought them for ???  i personaly would not buy an rc 81 w/o removing liner and check to see that the backside of the door is virgin ha ha

My Nichol Kola cooler was cut in half, on purpose (I guess it was used as a counter top cooler)
Anyway I took a donor cooler, had the bottom half cut off and welded/ground out on both sides since
both sides are visible... no seems... beautiful job. And the welder and I are still friends! Ha :smile:
He said it was a lot of work... had to shrink along the seems and weld in stages to keep from warping.
I'm just posting this to let you guys that are restoring know it can be done...
Not in reference to anyones machine.