Ideal Slider -- cooling, then not cooling

[ZMonet]

I was hoping I might be able to get some help with my Ideal 55 Pepsi Slider.  Initially the compressor was working and cooling and within a 24 hour period now it is not cooling.  There is a lot more detail, including the purchase of the machine, at this LINK

[cvb141]

You said the compressor and fan are still running, and that it started to frost. You didn't say if it completely frosted up. I would venture to guess that the filtetr/drier or cap tube line was partially stopped up and is worse now.  thats just a guess, it could be a weak compressor or a small leak. If everything is running but not cooling, than the t-stat wouldn't be the problem.
Jerry

[MoonDawg]

I think Jerry is right. A drop of water in the copper line will soon become a small droplet of ice.....and plug the cap tube.

[ZMonet]

I did not see the machine completely frost up.  I only saw some frost on the top  of the wall closest to me, was happy the machine still worked and then turned it off until last night when i saw it frost again before leaving it on.  Both times I saw it frost it was only run for an hour and a half or so.  How do I resolve this issue?  It seems like your theory would be right if, as seems to be the case, I turn the machine on and it cools to a point, then stops cooling, then I turn it off and it should repeat.  I'm going to take a picture of a kink in the copper to see if you guys think that might be the problem.  I feel like I'm so close to getting this up and going…yet so far away.

Thanks guys.  REALLY appreciate the help.

[aspbear1]

A kink in the tubing '>     Sounds like a possible solution....

[Yarochrehc]

I too think that you should try to get the kink out of the copper line without breaking it first! That could very well be the whole problem.

[ZMonet]

I'm still at work, but I'll take a look at it when I get home.  I assume getting the kink out is a matter of unbolting the compressor and maneuvering it to eliminate the kink without breaking it.  Is there any trick to this?  Thanks guys.

[Yarochrehc]

It depends on how bad of a kink you have to how hard it is to take it out.

The big thing to remember is to take it slow and easy.

Try to straighten it out by putting one hand on each side of the kink if possible, usuing your thumbs push on the copper line and just start to bend it back to the orginal shape.  

If it is a bad kink only bend it back part way to it's orginal shape, if you try to straighten it out completely it will probably break.

[ZMonet]

I didn't get home from work until very late last night, but I tried plugging the Slider in and checking in the morning and the same thing happened -- it frosted up, but by morning it was no longer cold.  I made the attempt because I thought it might be my thermostat setting.  The plastic dial does not change the temp setting and I am left with a small metal piece that I can push around the circle with a screw driver.  I guess my first issue is how the placement of the metal piece correlates to the temp setting.  Can anyone help me with that? (PIC ATTACHED #1)  Also, I have identified the "kink" and have attached additional PICS to see if you might have some more guidance as to whether this is likely the problem and, if so, how best to handle it.  It seems to be at an area where I'll have some difficulty "unkinking" it.  Thanks again everyone!

[globalcompressors]

That is a bad kink...Definitely could be a problem with freon flow. If it's bad enough,
it would be a restriction. Clear the kink first and see if it makes a difference. After that, if not any better, check the pressure. You might have a leak, low refrigerant, frosting, not cooling...classic symptoms.


Eric

[aspbear1]

That is a bad looking kink.  Work carefully that will break very easily with that dimple in the middle     Try just a little pressure on the top and bottom of the kink and see if that helps.   Good luck...

[ZMonet]

Thanks guys.  I'll wait it out until the weekend and give it some time.  I would hate to try and rush through it.

UPDATE (30 minutes later):Well, I couldn't wait for the weekend.  I swung the compressor out and did what I could with the kink (pictures below).  I didn't want to put too much pressure on the tubing and where the kink is situated makes it difficult to maneuver.  I now have the machine on and we'll see what happens.  Can anyone tell me how the metal piece on the thermostat should be positioned?  I'm wondering whether I have it on the highest setting or the lowest when the bigger metal piece points towards the 11.

Thanks guys.

[ZMonet]

picture of the thermostat

[ZMonet]

I ran it again with the changes I made to the kink with the exact same results -- cools and frost starts on the inside of the cooler, but by morning there is nothing.  What time of freon do these compressors take?  Any suggestions in replacing the freon that I should make a refrigeration mechanic aware of?  Any idea on what I should be looking to pay?

[aspbear1]

R-12 Freon and the tech will have to tap into the line but he should be able to handle the problem.  Prices vary, when I busted a line on mine it cost 105.00 to repair the line and get the freon replaced...but like I say it varies.  Ask them for an estimate.

[aspbear1]

you did a good job on getting the kink out.  That was a bad one.  To bad it did not fix your problem....

[ZMonet]

Thanks aspbear1.  I wish I could take credit for doing something, but I just put my hand on each side of the kink and gently pushed (and preyed).  I have a guy a refrigeration place coming tomorrow that says they have R-12.  My thinking is that they probably have R-12a, which from my reading I guess I don't want to use in this compressor.  Is it true that I can use R-414B "Hotshot"?

[aspbear1]

I really stay with the R 12,  I have heard that the hot shot will work.  Also I have a friend that had 409 put in his but I just dont think it feels the same as R 12.  It may just be me.

[ZMonet]

Is R12 still available?  I absolutely don't want to use R12a, right?  Anyone else have experience with using R-414B?

[aspbear1]

R 12 is still available.  It is a little expensive but your machine should only require less than one 12 ounce can.  I have never used the 414

[ZMonet]

The refrigeration mechanic came by, but I'm not sure I'm sold that he knows completely what he is going on with my machine.  His analysis was that it was likely a bad piston inside the compressor that was getting stuck after an hour or so as a result of a rough spot.  He said it likely works again after being turned off because the oil covers the piston again.  He said he didn't think it was moisture in the system because he said it wouldn't frost on the inside of the cooler if that was the case.  Not sure if his analysis meshes with what I've read...Anyway, his suggestion is to buy a new compressor and have that installed...but in so doing I'll be another $450 into the machine.  For that price I could just buy a working Pepsi slider  '>   I guess this is a lesson learned about making sure everything FULLY functions prior to doing any work to a machine.  

If I can get the freon recharged for under $100, do you think it is worth the attempt?  Am I correct that this would require a tap since this is a closed system?

[Yarochrehc]

R-12 is the best way to go, and if you can get the unit recharged for less than $100.00 it would be worth it.

Also, you can put R-409 in the system, I've done it to mine about 5 years ago and it is in use every day and it works fine.  I've done this to many other systems both big and small since R-409 has come on to the market. If the tech. knows what he or she is doing, you should not have any problems.

For your refrigeration guy, I think he needs to back to school.

[ZMonet]

Thanks Yarochrehc.  Does this require a tap into the compressor system?  That seems to be the case, but I want to make sure.

[globalcompressors]

Yes...

[Yarochrehc]

Yes, a service valve or tap will be needed to do this.

[aspbear1]

Try this,  when you are around the machine for awhile.  Plug the machine in and let it frost,  unplug the machine let it set for a few minutes and then plug it back in and let it frost.  Try this for several times.   I dont know if the tech you had was right or not but if the machine and been sitting without running for awhile you might just work by this rough spot and get it going again.   Heck, it is worth a try and you might save the re charge fee...Of course if it starts overloading turn it off and go to plan B

[MoonDawg]

Most soda machines require a line tap to service the system.
but the Ideal 35 and 55  have fittings for this purpose.
       Your refrigeration guy told you that the piston got stuck while in operation?  Have you stuffed a rag into your fanblade and determined that the compressor has stopped pumping?  You will be able to feel the vibration if it is working and notice when it stops.
       Water in a liquid state can travel with freon and frost up the liner.  As the moisture droplets cool to below 32 degree's is when they become a solid and block the line.

[ZMonet]

What would be symptoms of overloading?  Thanks for all the input.

[cvb141]

You didn't state if the compressor was still runing in the morning or not. We have used R409 for about ten years now, putting it in place of R12. Sometimes you can use an adjustable wrench and spin it around a piece of copper to help straighten it out a little better. That ref guy could have changed the drier, pulled a vacuum and recharged it fairly easy, and then you would have known if it was a restriction or bad compressor. I hope you get it fixed.
Jerry

[ZMonet]

Thanks Jerry.  The compressor is still running in the morning and is still warm, but the cooling plate inside the machine and the copper running to the compressor are no longer cold.  I think I have done a fairly good job of straightening the kink, so I don't think it is an obstruction...

Just to restate in case I haven't been clear enough:

Turn on machine -- INSIDE of machine frosts (as it should) and gets cold
Leave machine on evernight -- all frosting inside machine is gone and machine is no longer cold
Compressor and fan runs throughout

[cvb141]

If your were closer, I would be glad to help you out.  If your problem is a small amount of just moisture and nothing else. You could try some thawzone added to the system. Moondawg said it does have a line tap, then you could easily add some, which is pretty much just alcohol to help stop the moisture from freezing inside the cap tube. If you have access to gauges, then it would be cheap to try it.
Jerry

[MoonDawg]

(ZMonet @ Jan. 20 2007,7:24)

QUOTE

His analysis was that it was likely a bad piston inside the compressor that was getting stuck after an hour or so as a result of a rough spot.  He said it likely works again after being turned off because the oil covers the piston again.  

 Anyway, his suggestion is to buy a new compressor and have that installed...

Your compressor is running fine, and this guy wanted to sell you a new one.   There should be a law.
      Jerry has a great remedy, I didn't know that was available

[ZMonet]

MoonDawg -- Thanks for your input.  Didn't see your post earlier.  So the Ideal coolers aren't closed systems and I can just add freon or this Thawzone material to an existing tap?  Thanks again.  I'll try Jerry's remedy tonight when I get home (back at work now) and see if that gets things going.  Thanks again guys.

[globalcompressors]

Guys,

I think everyone is over thinking this problem. The machine probably has flare fittings. My FIRST place to start would be a small leak...If the line was kinked during shipping or transport, then...would it not be plausible that the line was hit hard enough for a flare to start leaking?'> Always look for the simple problems first.

If it is a factory system and has never been tapped, there won't be moisture in the system...its sealed unless there is a leak...or someone has messed with it.

Pressurize the system and look for the obvious, make the repair, evacuate, replace the drier, vacuum down, charge with an R12 replacement.

Now, if the compressor is making a ton of noise, then the service guy might be right...sort of. If the compressor has lost it's compression then you will have similar symptoms.

Hope this helps,

Eric

[globalcompressors]

Two other quick questions, has anyone even bothered to put a set of guages on the machine, from the get go, to see if the "static" pressure is where it's supposed to be or where the pressure drops to when the compressor is running?

How about the compressor shutting off, on thermal overload,  during the duration of it's cooling cycle?
As stated above, try the rag in the fan trick. Stop the fan and see if the compressor's even running after a period of time.

Just a few more thoughts before bed!

Eric

[ZMonet]

Thanks Eric.  No, nobody has set gauges on the machine.  The refrigeration guy who came by didn't even suggest it -- just that I should replace the compressor.  Again, not sure if he either knows what he is doing or has my interests anyplace in his mind.

I'll try the towel in the fan trick and see if the compressor is running when it is no longer getting cold.

I've taken a couple more pics of the compressor.  Does any of this depict the flare fittings where I could add thawzone or freon into the system?  TIA.  I'm sure you guys are well sick of this post.

[cvb141]

I hope that guy didn't charge you anything for looking at it.
Jerry

[globalcompressors]

You have photographed the service valve...that's it.
I've never tried "Thawzone" so I don't have an oppinion of the product.
I guess I'm old school, guages, vacuum pumps, repairs, stuff like that...

Before you go any further, get someone who KNOWS what they're doing.
Open the service valves, check for leaks, replace the drier, vacuum the system, go from there.

Lotions,  potions, and non-proficient service guys are going to cost you money. Pay someone to do the job right...the first time.

Eric

[ZMonet]

Eric and everyone else -- Thanks for the advice.  I will get it fixed correctly as long as it makes sense to do it that way.  I'm just asking all the questions because I'm just trying to figure out the mechanics of the machine and it will help make sure I'm not taken when I have someone come and fix it.  Unfortunately there are not many people in the immediate area who know what they are doing, but many who charge extremely high rates and feel it is a license to charge you an arm and a leg because it is an old soda machine.  Such is living in a major metropolitan area.  I guess I should buy a manual that has all the parts labeled on this thing since I have two more I'll be dealing with shortly.

[globalcompressors]

Just keep in mind that anyone who works on any medium temperature commercial cooler equipment can deal with this problem box. Thats the key.

You're right, guys who call themselves servicemen, and I use the term loosely, make it hard for the "legitmate" contractors to overcome the stereo type stigma
attched to the industry. I'm like Jerry above, I really get angry, every time I hear
a story, like yours. I receive at least 20 calls a week from people who buy something that is supposed to be working. They get home and it doesn't work, surprise! They spend good money on a "working machine" that doesn't work. Then they're at the mercy of some "fly by night" idiot that doesn't know his A** from a hole in the ground.

Anyway, this IS what this site is about...Q & A. People want to learn, if nothing else, to keep from being taken to the cleaners!!!!

If you wish to give me a call, while the service guy is at your place, please feel free to do so. I'll be happy to help out!

Eric

[cvb141]

I know you don't want to spend a lot on it anyway, but it sounds as though with the right person working on it, it should be an easy fix. Sometimes you don't know what the person before you has done to it. Could be as simple as they had gauges on it and lost a little gas removing them. Good luck on what ever you do.
Jerry

[bubba]

Does this help ya?

[ZMonet]

Thanks Bubba.  That is just what I need.  I'm going to print that out.

I don't think that is a broken pipe.  It is some sort of sleeve that is part of the flare fitting that the copper tubing is connected to.

I think I found someone who said they would follow Eric's suggested course of action (I copied and pasted exactly what Eric said).  The catch is that I need to bring the machine to him.  At this point I'm willing to do it though and I'll deal with scratches, etc. later.

[globalcompressors]

Good luck!!!

Remember, If you need anything, don't hesitate to call. Ask the service guy some questions as well. He should have NO problems with answering anything his CUSTOMER wants to know.

See ya!

Eric

[ZMonet]

I let the compressor run until it was no longer cooling.  In then stuck a towel in the fan to stop it.  The compressor was still warm to the touch, was still slightly vibrating and was still whirring.  I'm going to get it all tested, etc. hopefully next weekened, but is there anything I can conclude from what I've found?  Thanks again everyone.