Ideal55 refrigeration system specs?

[BryanH]

Would appreciate some insights on 2 questions below.  

My slider is still acting up.  Tried fixing the thermostat as described in this thread.  Now the dang thing doesn't seem to want to cool below 40 degrees.  If it matters it has only ever iced up the coils closest to the compressor (see picture) but it has previously gotten very cold.

The tag on the compressor unit says the system is a Tecumseh with the following specs:
    Model NO. = P91L
    B.M. NO. = 914A1
    TEST PRESS = 235 H.S. & 140 L.S.
    REFRIGERANT = C Cl2 F2,  8 OZ   (is this a half pound of R12?)

Now for my questions:
-  I'm thinking I might need a recharge or overhaul.  Any other suggestions?
-  How can I tell if the tag info correctly identifies my system? I want to make sure I know what kind of services / skills I should be looking for.

[MoonDawg]

Yes, those coils look undercharged.
        Your compressor is not the original for a 55, so if it has been changed in the past,  one of their solder joints may be faulty and leaking freon.

[Yarochrehc]

I agree with Glen.

The first thing to do is get a set of manifold gauges on the system to check out what the pressures are at.

If it is low on refrigerant, then the leak needs to be found and fixed.

You can put R-409 in place of the R-12, or there are other substitues too.

[globalcompressors]

I have to ask the obvious... are you running the system without a

condenser fan motor???   Also, someone else answer this, isn't the 55 a 1/5 or 1/6

hp system? The compressor looks like a 1/4 or 1/3. Combine this with no fan, you

won't ever get it to run right.  There has been a drier added, good...but the strainer

is still orginal. That wierd piece soldered in before the drier on the lower part of the

coil. That could be stopped up and needs to be removed.


Eric

[BryanH]

Thanks everyone.

Eric - There is a fan and it works fine.  I had already taken it off the mounting plate when I took the picture  The tag that was on the compressor mounting plate said the motor was 1/8 H.P.  I'm now thinking the tag may have been original but that someone has replaced the old compressor by welding in a new bigger one?

I've added a couple more pics that show what I have.  Can you tell me what part is the dryer and what part is the strainer?  That will help me figure out what weird part you think might need to go.  If you know what the various fittings and caps are for that would be nice to know also.  

So I should be asking for someone that can:
(1) pressure test the system for leaks,
(2) fix any leaks found
(3) replace the drier, vacuum the system
(4) recharge with r12 or r409

Anything else?

[globalcompressors]

I can see it better...it's a flared fitting. You've got it! The drier is the copper
"cigar" you have labeled. The thing I was calling the "strainer" is in fact a flared
fitting, at the bottom of the coil before the drier. It should be okay. I believe the compressor is entirely too large for the unit. The condenser coil is a small
coil...1/6 to 1/8 size, makes sense now.

Has the unit ever run correctly in it's current configuration? Perhaps that's the reason the folks sold it? I'm going to make a guess...

The orginal compressor failed and was replaced,

The new compressor is too large, Calls for 1/8 installs 1/4... 2x too large.

The unit heats up, boiling the oil, turning to sludge (like a car engine)(yes, it happens)

Restriction in the cap tube (hair thin line) caused by too large a compressor...too small condenser and can't reduce the head pressure or heat. Their remedy, under charge the unit. That trick works, sometimes if you arn't over (or under) 10-15%

Solution? Cut everything loose. Check the evaporator coil for any leaks, Purge them using a solvent. blow everything out. Replace the cap tube with a new one. Replace the entire lower unit. Solder everything (not flare). I like using copper phosphate (0%) solder. 5% or 15% works also. Vacuum and charge.

I would go with a small 1/5 or regular 1/6 set up with the correct cap tube size and length. A larger condenser coil will give you more capacity and cooling ability.

You will probably be able to "freeze" the coils 90-100% around the tub giving you  a better quality of cooling ability. Use a new thermostat, mounted inside the box.

Run it a couple of days, adjusting the charge to where it needs to be, preventing "flood back" to the compressor, head pressure (not too high), good amps, cycle times, etc..

That's what I'd do!

Eric '>

[johnieG]

(globalcompressors @ Feb. 14 2007,5:17)

QUOTE

I have to ask the obvious... are you running the system without a

condenser fan motor???   Also, someone else answer this, isn't the 55 a 1/5 or 1/6

hp system? The compressor looks like a 1/4 or 1/3. Combine this with no fan, you

won't ever get it to run right.  There has been a drier added, good...but the strainer

is still orginal. That wierd piece soldered in before the drier on the lower part of the

coil. That could be stopped up and needs to be removed.


Eric

I just checked my Ideal55/hires & Pat Pixleys Ideal/Atlas both are indeed 1/5 h.p. Tecumseh pancake compressors, the Ideal 85A/Hires I helped get for another site member was equipt with the 1/4 h.p. unit.

[globalcompressors]

Johnie,

His next post says the orginal tag shows to be 1/8 hp. If that is a true, orginal

platform...he's screwed, wrong compressor, no question. If it's not...he's screwed,

wrong platform, wrong compressor, wrong everything.  Going from only a picture,

the evaporator coils look to be "about" 1/5- 1/6 in size. If I had this machine in my

shop, I'd go exactly like I mentioned above.  


I've built so many units, it's only my experience talking. Sometimes projects are too

large for someone who simply doesn't have the skill level to be in it this deep. The

person who worked on it before obviously didn't know what they were doing. Just

because you worked on "Uncle Bob's" fridge...doesn't mean you're a service tech.

Look at the soldered joint, in the upper picture,  that's a clue. '>



Eric

[BrianB]

So Eric, you're saying that "Bigger the blob, better the job" isn't true?!?!?  '>

[globalcompressors]

Awww... man, you blew my secret!!!

Don't tell the one about 5 lbs of freon in an 8oz system either...shhhhhhhh

What do they call that...10 lbs of s**t  in a 5 lb. bag?


 '>  Eric

[johnieG]

When I talk to my customers about quality brazing, this is what I refer to as bird-Chit soldering, his propane (plumbing) tourch must have been a tad to cold eh?

[SIGNGUY]

SOLUTION:  Scrap or send the system to Eric, Get the right system that works, pay the money and start enjoying your cooler. Probably not what you want to hear, but from the sounds of it. You may go crazy and or broke just trying to fix it? I have gone through something similiar... in the end my replacement cooling system cost me near double of what I should have paid. :'>  '>

[BryanH]

First of all thanks for the advice. Secondly '> CRAP! '>. Now that it's out of my system... The system did cool as low as 32 degrees but it's aways run long and the cut-in and cut-out temp never worked well.  Even now, it runs for a very long time (hours) and the compressor gets hot but not burning hot (like my cavalier did before I replaced the t-stat).

Now for more of my questions:

(globalcompressors @ Feb. 14 2007,8:14)

QUOTE

The condenser coil is a small coil...1/6 to 1/8 size

I would go with a small 1/5 or regular 1/6 set up with the correct cap tube size and length. A larger condenser coil will give you more capacity and cooling ability.

Run it a couple of days, adjusting the charge to where it needs to be, preventing "flood back" to the compressor, head pressure (not too high), good amps, cycle times, etc..

The condenser coil is 9"W x 9"H.  Will a 1/5 or 1/6 HP compressor work with this condenser?

Do you see something in the pics that make you think the cap tube is the wrong size?

In terms of cutting out the oversized compressor - I would cut at #1 and at #3 if the cap tube and drier were ok. But not sure where the cut for the hot line would be - 2a or 2b?

And probably the easier question what would a new / refurb'd compressor cost?  compressor + condenser? compressor + condenser + coils?

[cvb141]

Eric would you recommend a low temp compressor, like maybe a AEA1332YXA 1/5hp with a new cap tube to match on this unit?

[globalcompressors]

We don't want to use a "low" temp compressor in a med temp system, different displacement size.

What people don't realize, the systems are built for a specific application...low, medium, high, low back pressure, high back pressure, r12, r134, r404, r22...etc.

I give a lot of advice on this site. I give my best ideas, and thoughts. It may not be the cheapest, but it's what I feel is the best from my experience. I can't teach refrigeration over the internet. All I can do is offer the best of my abilities. So here it is...

As stated as before, replace the lower unit, replace the stat and bracket, check the evaporator coil for leaks, clean the oil residue using a solvent, install the unit, pull a vacuum and charge.

My job, my methods, my experience, doesn't involve just trying to piece together a bad unit that someone else butchered. Not just yours but everyone's. You can't even imagine the number of phone calls, I receive, from people who have this very problem. Fix it right...the 1st time.

Again...I'm not the cheapest....but I have been in business over 18 years. You be the judge.

Give me a call if you wish to order the parts.
 
Eric '>

[davethebirdman]

As much as it hurts... And I know it hurts (broken compressor on 56)
you have to go with the man who knows what he is talking about. Bite the bullet.
Get it out and down the tip. Get a new one in.

Eric - I for one (and I know there are many others) appreciate all the free help and advice.
Living thousands of miles away you are never going to make any money out of me but have always helped with issues I've had before.

Dave

[globalcompressors]

Thanks Dave...

It's not always about the money as you, and others on this board, know.

Hey, never say never...I have  customers in Yokohama, Japan...
Sydney, Australia...Moose Jaw, Canada...Honolulu, Hawaii.

We do alot of shipping and get a pretty good rate.

See ya!

Eric '>

[Skeleton Man]

Wow.. shipping to Sydney, Australia (or anywhere in Oz) must've cost a pretty penny..

[globalcompressors]

I didn't pay for it. We did 40 Dixie Narco units Boxed and stacked
on 2 pallets. Shippped to California about $300 then they were loaded into a container with other soda machines and various parts. I have no idea what a container runs but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.

What I've noticed, is that here in the States, we have access to so much more in the way of machines and parts than in other parts of the World. Japan for example, the hot thing is early Americana.
Soda machine, refrigerators, gas pumps, signs, baseball, you name it. His web site is www.the-true.co.jp check it out.

We really have it good around here!

Eric '>

[Skeleton Man]

You guys definately have it good..  Me being in Canada I managed to find what I needed for my machine..  but as Vossy demonstrated, back in Oz it's a different story.. everything is harder to come by and hence more expensive..

On that topic..  does anyone know if Coinco mechs are used outside the US/Canada ?

[cvb141]

I'm not familiar with the slider and was not sure if it worked like a cold plate and got cold around the outside of the box and required using a low temp comp. The pics made me wonder how it worked and what kind comp it used,  since I didn't see any evaporator fans.
Jerry

[globalcompressors]

No problem Jerry.

It is forced air on the lower condenser. The static cooled evaporator is like your "cold plate" style of cooling. The problem is,
someone has come in and done a "hack" job with no reguard in wanting it to work right...just to make a quick buck!

Remember, everything we have, in the soda machine relm, is medium temperature, roughly 20-50 degrees. High temp is above 50 and low is down as low as -20F usually frozen food, ice cream, etc..

I really does make a difference in which compressor is used. Some compressors require a "start kit" for high start torque, low temp, expansion valve, commercial, things like that. Low start torque, usually means medium and high temp/cap tube application. Cap tube allows pressure to equalize slowly once the compressor shuts down. Now throw in the different type of freon used. Some develope higher head pressure, some run in a vacuum once temperature is reached which causes another problem, back pressure to cool the compressor. Some of the windings require "sub-cooling" to keep the motors cooled down during running. Some compressors don't need it. (Everyone taking notes?) You really don't want to know this stuff do you?

It really just pays to do the job right the first time. I enjoy helping others, but...I have to make a living too.
I try and answer all the questions I can, making it possible for my customer to make an informed decision
in what's best for them. I know it sounds "sappy" but it's true...I wouldn't be on this board if it wasn't!

Eric '>

PS...Jim, can I have "extra" credit for these really long answers, on my "Soda Jerk" status?
Man, my fingers hurt!

[cvb141]

Thanks for the info. More than I needed though. I have changed compressors on small dorm size refrigerators that uses a cold plate style evaporator and a low temp compressor. Not knowing anything about this unit, I wondered if it was maybe like the small refrigerator. Then again I have changed compressors on milk boxes that freeze around the inside also, that use a high temp compressor. Good to know the soda machines use a medium temp.  I'll give you a break for a while, so your fingers can rest. Really, I do like reading your input on any of the subjects of refrigeration.  Jerry

[globalcompressors]

Thanks Buddy...



Eric '>

[BryanH]

I wanted to thank everyone that offered advice... With your help I knew what key words and experiences to look for from a technician. I sent a bunch of feelers out on Phoenix craigslist and found a local guy that used to have his own business repairing these machines (as well as many other refrigeration / cooling systems).  After talking with him I was pretty sure that I could trust him with my slider.  '>

Well I picked up my slider from a local guy and I'm happy to say that it's working like a charm.  Machine is loaded and running as cool as 32F and cycles on and off like it's supposed to.   '>

Thanks again!

[globalcompressors]

Awesome!


Eric

[cohammer]

I brought this back to try and find out if the dryer placement on my 35 slider pancake compressor would be the same as this compressor that is shown by Eric?

[johnieG]

Originally Ideal 35's & 55's didn't have a filter/dryer, they had what was called a "strainer" which is a small diameter stainless-steel and/or bronze screen about as round as a pencil eraser in the little "bulb" on the line that exited at the bottom of the condenser coil that line then is brazed onto the capillary line which feeds the high-pressure liquid freon up to the evaporator coils in the tank.

the filter dryer shown ( some people refer to it as a copper hot-dog or cigar) in earlier photo's in this discussion were added after the system was "repaired"

But to answer your question, yes, if you have one or are going to install one, then it will go at the bottom of the condenser coil and you will then couple it to your capillary tube, pay attention to the flow-arrow on the body of the dryer, the freon leaves the condenser, flows through the filter, then enters the capillary tube.