Cavalier C5 power problem

[hytwr1]

Hi,

I've been playing with this Cavalier C5. It's been working fine for the last couple of weeks.

Today I went to buy a Coke from it and it tripped the GFI outlet when the vend relay engergized. Everything, coin changer, cooling unit. lights, etc works fine until you drop the final coin in.

Since I don't have a service manual for one of these monsters, I'm not sure where to start.

Anybody run across this before?

Thanks
Bill

[johnieG]

first off you should never plug a soda-machine or other motorized appliance into a GFIC circut, when the motor or compressor kicks on the current surge & chassis/ground induced leakage current will trip it every time! this is your first error. ( and a common one too!) so try pluging it into a non protected outlet.

also which model C5 do you have? (C5-144?, etc.) 

[hytwr1]

Well, the machine is sitting out doors. Shouldn't that require a GFCI?

C5-255-150

Thanks
Bill

[johnieG]

NO,     99% of all old electrically cooled soda machines are outdoor rated and do not need a GFI, they do need a grounded outlet, as I said before, you never put any motorized machine on a GFI, that includes washers, dryers, refrigerators, drill presses........etc.     why? because if you do, the electric motors will pop it every time, why? because of the amount of current needed to start the bloody things upon startup will cause a huge surge of input current, which then causes a huge magnetic field to build to start the motor spinning, this magnetic field then creates a counter-current in the metal of the case of the motor & surrounding metal of the chassis, which naturally seeks ground,  so what does the GFI do when it sees this surge of current in the ground wire? it trips just like it's supposed to do.

NO NO NO GFI's on soda machine circuts... (hint hint) 

[SquareTopCollector]

When you drop the final coin in the machine is ready to vend, sending electric current to release the product. That little surge of power could be whats making it trip.

I bought a uss 64 cheap because the seller thought his machine was shot. He was plugging it into a GFCI.

[hytwr1]

I'm sorry I even asked. The machine has been running fine on GFCI for weeks. I'll install another outlet.

Thanks Square top.
Bill

[Witchboard]

Don't be sorry you asked.  I learned something as well.  There's always somebody else who either doesn't know or has the same question.

[MoonDawg]

       I didn't know that either! 

[Pat Pixley]

Hey Bill Don't worry about this It is human nature to learn
we learn from each other and that's what make this site one
of the best site out there.
 So glad your here and hope you stike around for a long time.

   Pat

[SquareTopCollector]

sometimes it sounds like people yell at you here but they are just giving you " tough love"

[johnieG]

Sorry if it sounds like I'm telling it too hard!  , it's the 15 years I spend as a certified biomedical electronics technician in the healthcare field, basically, we were responsible for maintaining all of the hospitals electronic & electrical equipment & a big part of that is the monitoring of the leakage current produced from the electrical patient equipment ( it's known a ground leakage), if you go to your local hospital you'll notice that none of the electrical outlets that are used for patient care equipment are GFI protected. that's for the same reason I stated with the soda machines. They are all however grounded! a typical refrigerator can have as much as 500 miliamps ( 1/2 of an amp) of leakage current on the chassis due to electrical/motor inductance & leakage current tha goes right through the insulation of the wiring. and the best part of this story is it's perfectly normal!  ( and by the way, it takes only 10 milliamps of current to stop your heart)

Yes, I know it's probably been working fine for the past few weeks on the GFI, but from my point of view, this means you have (had) a sticky GFI , it should have popped as soon as you fire the machine up! GFI's are required in certain damp / wet electrical hazard areas of a home & business  ( in the USA anyway) but technically not required nor recomended by the electrical code on this type of motorized equipment. Yeah , I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but it's for a reason. there are no foolish questions, only fools who don't ask them,
( & people like me who had way to much caffine the other day! sorry if it seem I was barking at you! ) now ... I'd better see a damn good grounded plug & line cord on the machine! 

[SquareTopCollector]

Tell it how it is johnieG, we appreciate that you share your knowledge.
 



You know, my last hobby required everything to be plugged into a GFCI, now I have to replace the outlets again but this time removing GFCI's instead of installing them. That’s kind of ironic.   

[hytwr1]

Well, the thing is it is a violation of electrical code to run an outside exposed outlet, without GFCI protection. So, I can't change the outlet since this is exposed, unless I some how lock out the outlet so nothing else can be plugged in. This information comes from an electrical engineer friend.

Besides, the machine is rated at 10A and the GFCI is 15A. If we are getting that much draw then, there is something wrong with the machine, not the GFCI; or in this case two different GCFI's.

FWIW, I am an electronic technican too. Also quite versed in electrical wiring of buildings and the code.

Bill

[SquareTopCollector]

not sure how it is in the state you live in but here in FL the only time the code will be enforced is when you apply for a permit or in a new construction home/building. If the inspector isnt coming to your house anytime soon then go ahead and change it.

[bubba]

not sure how it is in the state you live in but here in FL the only time the code will be enforced is when you apply for a permit or in a new construction home/building. If the inspector isnt coming to your house anytime soon then go ahead and change it.

 Uhhh... don't use this logic please.. If for whatever reason you should have a fire, and they determine there should have been a particular outlet and its not there, good luck with your insurance company. Just because and inspector doesn't come to your house, doesn't make it right.

[SquareTopCollector]

The chances are slim but we dont want anyone to be unsafe. Good advice bubba

[MoonDawg]

       OK, now for us non-engineering nerds..........what is GFCI ?

       I thought they were only required in bathrooms or near water?

[SquareTopCollector]

Different states/counties have different codes but a majority have the same code. In my county I am required to install one in the bathroom, kitchen, porch and any room where the outlets are with in the proximity of water. GFCI is an abbreviation of ground fault circuit interrupter.

here is a link for more info

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/99.html

[Jim]

In So. Fla., we're now required to utilize Arc Suppressor Breakers in bedrooms ! ! !
These are glorified GFI breakers that sense minimal arcing from anything plugged/connected into the circuit...

[hytwr1]

According to the NEC (National Electrical Code) 2005, Article 422, part 422.51, starting January 1, 2005, cord-and plug connected vending machines with have either integral machine or cord GCFI protection, or be connected to a branch circuit with GFCI protection.

Bill

[johnieG]

Haa! tell that to Coke! every Vendo monster machine I've ever serviced doesn't have a line cord GFCI. & our local bottlers wont install their macines on a GFCI outlets, out of curiousity, I pulled into a local wally-world store with a row of vending machines, not a GFCI in sight, (but they could be on a GFCI circut breaker I guess back at the main panel.)

hmmm looks like catch-22

[Creighton]

So a cord like what is on a powerwasher would meet code? Where would I find them rated for vending machines? Always replace the wiring anyway, might as well do it right.
Thanks, great thread!!
Creighton

[SquareTopCollector]

Electric powerwashers have them built in the plug. Home depot sells a power strip for 29.99 that has a built in GFCI

[bubba]

Thinking back on my wiring, I have 2 machines plugged into GFCI circuits. I had trouble with one popping the gfci once in awhile. My basement machine has never tripped it, but my older patio machine did. The new machine I have outside does not trip the breaker..

[SquareTopCollector]

on the machine you had trouble with, did you have anything else plugged into the same circuit?

[MoonDawg]

      I read the link and they defined the risk as when faulty wiring
comes into contact with a "grounded plumbing fixture". Bathrooms
and kitchens etc. certainly have grounded plumbing fixtures using copper
pipe so we can understand why they require special electrical breakers!
     But outside rainwater or lawn sprinklers are not grounded.
     What's the big fuss if a Coke machine gets wet?

     I've been sellin' old Coke machines for 20 years and ain't never had
the lack of a GFCI hurt anyone!  I doubt if I will change my ways now!

                                   

[SquareTopCollector]

I agree moondawg. Our first house was built in the 50's and didnt have GFCI's and I am still here today.

[hytwr1]

From EC&M magazine 11/1/04

Bill


422.51 CORD-AND-PLUG-CONNECTED VENDING MACHINES
Because of three recent deaths, a new Code section requires GFCI protection for cord-and-plug-connected vending machines.

Cord-and-plug-connected vending machines manufactured or re-manufactured on or after January 1, 2005 must include a ground-fault circuit interrupter as an integral part of the attachment plug. Cord-and-plug-connected vending machines not incorporating integral GFCI protection must be connected to a GFCI-protected outlet.

Author's Comment: This change was driven by three electrocutions since 1995; two of the victims were children who touched the energized metal parts of a vending machine. Because electric vending machines are often located in damp or wet locations in public places, and are used by people standing on the ground, reliance on an equipment grounding (bonding) conductor for protection against electrocution is insufficient.

[Camel24hrs]

I have both of my uss12-96 machines are plugged into GFCI circuts and I do not have a problem with either one of them.  I had a friend that lost his life to a refigerator with a short in it.  I would not think of plugging a vending machine into anything that was not on a GFCI.  You might want to try replaceing the GFCI breaker with a new one as I have seen them go bad before. 

[scalebowler]

Does this mean that I should not have my pepsi machine pluged into a power strip? I have had it in there for 2 months now and it seems to work.

[johnieG]

A power-strip/surge protector is not the same thing as a GFCI power outlet of circuit breaker, interesting enough with all of the above reports of electrocution, the bottom line is if it's not grounded you are asking for it.  I worked as a certified biomedical electronic tech in multiple hospitals, Operating rooms, ICU & CCU units, you will only find  GFCI outlets in the bathrooms, and this is with patients with indwelling catheters directly into their hearts. the majority of bio-med safety checks is lifting the ground & testing the chassis leakage current presented to the patient leads of main equipment case that may come into contact with people. 

make sure the damn thing is grounded & the freaking outlet is grounded too. 

[scalebowler]

A power-strip/surge protector is not the same thing as a GFCI power outlet of circuit breaker, interesting enough with all of the above reports of electrocution, the bottom line is if it's not grounded you are asking for it.  I worked as a certified biomedical electronic tech in multiple hospitals, Operating rooms, ICU & CCU units, you will only find  GFCI outlets in the bathrooms, and this is with patients with indwelling catheters directly into their hearts. the majority of bio-med safety checks is lifting the ground & testing the chassis leakage current presented to the patient leads of main equipment case that may come into contact with people.  
make sure the damn thing is grounded & the freaking outlet is grounded too.  

Ok thanks. For some reason I thought they were the same thing. Thanks for clearing that  up for me.

[Creighton]

One of the must haves for the toolkit.
Creighton